# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/261 "2010-06-22T06:22:08Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’m actually torn on this topic. On the one hand, I think maybe one should have to go to prison for this horrific crime. But on the other hand, I believe I could have been the one in the cuffs at some point. I just want to point out that these need not be two separate “hands.” One might reasonably say that killing an infant by abandoning it in a parked car is a most loathsome crime _and_ something that _might_, just possibly, happen accidentally to any of us. > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Please stop pretending we are defending negligent parents. > > What we _are_ talking about is parents that had a catastrophic memory failure. …leading to their negligence and the death of their child. As I’ve said in discussions of another kind of vehicular killing, the fact that an event is accidental does not mean that it’s nobody’s fault. I’m not eager to be construed as taking **Dio** ’s side, but he is correct that leaving a baby in a parked car is _always_ negligence. At best. Whether it is _criminal_ negligence is perhaps a matter of debate, but indisputably a child **has been neglected**. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/262 "2010-06-22T08:48:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For those who object to punishment for this kind of negligence – are you saying that leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legal? If not, the what are you saying? Is it a crime or isn’t it? Intentionally leaving your baby in the car until it dies should be a crime (and of course it is). Doing it by accident should not be. These people have suffered enough. I don’t expect you to agree, but frankly you don’t strike me as a very compassionate person. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/263 "2010-06-22T08:53:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you know the kid is in the car, then leaving it is automatically willful. Everything that is forgotten is stuff you once knew. That’s an essential part of the definition of the word forget. You’re distorting “willfull” to the point of meaninglessness. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/264 "2010-06-22T11:13:15Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I’m not eager to be construed as taking **Dio** ’s side, but he is correct that leaving a baby in a parked car is _always_ negligence. At best. Whether it is _criminal_ negligence is perhaps a matter of debate, but indisputably a child **has been neglected**. And everyone here knows that. If you think about it, its nearly a circular definition, making a it a point barely worth making. Its almost like saying when something bad happens its like bad dude. Off the top of my head, to me negligence means when something isnt done or done improperly and bad things result from that. I dont think it takes a fracking rocket scientist to see that applies to babies left in cars to die. There is a reason all these other fancy words keep appearing in front of the word negligence when discussing this story and the legal aspects of it. Because the word by itself really doesnt tell you anything you didnt already really know. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/265 "2010-06-22T14:10:22Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Intentionally leaving your baby in the car until it dies should be a crime (and of course it is). > > Doing it by accident should not be. These people have suffered enough. So the test is purely whether they say it was an accident? The ones who intentionally leave their kids in the car while they go to gamble or get their hair done get a free pass if they just say, “I forgot.” > [@](#): > > I don’t expect you to agree, but frankly you don’t strike me as a very compassionate person. You’re the one who wants to legalize cooking babies in cars and you say I’M not compassionate? My compassionate is for the victims here. These are not CD’s getting warped on a dashboard. These are completely helpless, suffering, innocent little victims. The people who cook them are not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/266 "2010-06-22T14:11:29Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Everything that is forgotten is stuff you once knew. That’s an essential part of the definition of the word forget. You’re distorting “willfull” to the point of meaninglessness. They still knew their kids were in the car. It was not lost knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/267 "2010-06-22T15:18:22Z")
[quote=“Diogenes\_the\_Cynic, post:265, topic:543728”] So the test is purely whether they say it was an accident? The ones who intentionally leave their kids in the car while they go to gamble or get their hair done get a free pass if they just say, "I forgot."QUOTE] If they can convince a ADA they forgot, heck, yes. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/268 "2010-06-22T15:19:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They still knew their kids were in the car. It was not lost knowledge. Not necessarily, in many of these cases they thought the kid had already been dropped off at daycare or was being taken care of by someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/269 "2010-06-22T15:42:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If they can convince a ADA they forgot, heck, yes. So if they’re good enough actors, they walk? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/270 "2010-06-22T15:57:18Z")
Nothing to do with the discussion, but every time I read the thread title I keep seeing the following scene; Somewhere in legendary Texas, in the 1880’s. A stranger rides into town. He gets off his horse and goes to the nearest saloon, to meet people and establish his peacable intentions. He walks in and is approached by a rangy fellow with a six shooter on his side. “Howdy stranger” says the gunslinger. “Howdy.” says the stranger “My names Clem Burke, on my way to Abeline.” “I’m Jake Johnson, but most folks here call me the Texas Kid.” There’s a bit of embarrassed throat clearing among a group of men in the background. After some whispered discussion one comes forward. “Uh, see, Jake, turns out there’s another Texas Kid, down in Beaumont. We needed to come up with a new nickname for you.” “Well, what is it?” “Well, you might not like it…” ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/271 "2010-06-22T16:17:28Z")
Dio, it’s been sad for me to watch the downward spiral you’ve been in lately. I used to look forward to reading what you had to say. First of all, you said these parents were guilty of murder. Murder does require intent. Now you are moving the goalposts and saying it’s criminal neglect. You have challenged people to google the statute, which surprisingly nobody has yet done. So here is the [Indiana statute](http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar46/ch1.html#IC35-46-1-4): > [@IC 35-46-1-4](#): > > **IC 35-46-1-4 > Neglect of a dependent; child selling** > Sec. 4. (a) A person having the care of a dependent, whether assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation, who **knowingly or intentionally** : > (1) places the dependent in a situation that endangers the dependent’s life or health; > (2) abandons or cruelly confines the dependent; > (3) deprives the dependent of necessary support; or > (4) deprives the dependent of education as required by law; > commits neglect of a dependent, a Class D felony. Bolding mine. It goes on to enumerate harsher penalties for different circumstances; it is a Class A Felony if it results in the death of the dependent. It clearly states it must be intentional. I await your detraction, I hope it will not be necessary for me to go back and quote the times that you stated that intentionality is not required for the crime of neglect. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/272 "2010-06-22T16:36:45Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Criminal negligence requires that the defendant willfully placed the child in a circumstance that a reasonable person would have known was dangerous, even if there was no intent for harm to occur. “Willfully” is the operative word. A parent who leaves a kid in the car “just for a minute” while he goes shopping may well be criminally negligent. A parent who is unaware that the child is in danger, no. No it doesn’t require “willfully”.. the essence of negligence is that you did not intend to commit the action in question which has caused the harm. First. the parent is aware that leaving a child in a baking car will and can cause harm to the child. Second.. the parent has a “duty” to the child to ensure his/her safety and to take reasonable measures to do so. Third.. the parent NEGLECTED to do their duty causing said harm to the aforementioned child. Hence.. you are responsible for your kid.. left them in harms way.. harm occurred.. now if you want to argue that it’s an anomaly with this particular parent.. or that certain stressful issues were at play fine.. But the parent can potentially be liable for criminal negligence.. If you google you’ll fine several cases where the presentation was made before the grand jury.. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/273 "2010-06-22T16:40:55Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Dio, it’s been sad for me to watch the downward spiral you’ve been in lately. I used to look forward to reading what you had to say. > > First of all, you said these parents were guilty of murder. Murder does require intent. Now you are moving the goalposts and saying it’s criminal neglect. You have challenged people to google the statute, which surprisingly nobody has yet done. So here is the [Indiana statute](http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar46/ch1.html#IC35-46-1-4): > > Bolding mine. It goes on to enumerate harsher penalties for different circumstances; it is a Class A Felony if it results in the death of the dependent. It clearly states it must be intentional. > > I await your detraction, I hope it will not be necessary for me to go back and quote the times that you stated that intentionality is not required for the crime of neglect. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.. did you not read “Knowingly or Intentionally”?? Hence either of those two must be in play for the law to be in effect. You knew you left your kid in the car.. you just forgot to take him out. Like.. you knew you left your loaded .38 on the armoire in the living room.. you just forgot to put it up when your 11yr old’d friends came over to play Nintendo. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/274 "2010-06-22T16:53:14Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.. did you not read “Knowingly or Intentionally”?? > Hence either of those two must be in play for the law to be in effect. You knew you left your kid in the car.. you just forgot to take him out. Like.. you knew you left your loaded .38 on the armoire in the living room.. you just forgot to put it up when your 11yr old’d friends came over to play Nintendo. This is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. If you forgot that you left your kid in the car, you don’t know you left your kid in the car. Also, leaving a loaded .38 sitting around is always dangerous. Putting a kid in the car is not. The negligence in leaving the gun out comes from the initial act of knowingly leaving it where a kid can get it, not in forgetting about it later. Forgetting you left a gun laying around (an illegal act in itself) is not the same as forgetting you put your kid in the car (a legal act.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/275 "2010-06-22T16:53:38Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Dio, it’s been sad for me to watch the downward spiral you’ve been in lately. I used to look forward to reading what you had to say. > > First of all, you said these parents were guilty of murder. Murder does require intent. Now you are moving the goalposts and saying it’s criminal neglect. You have challenged people to google the statute, which surprisingly nobody has yet done. So here is the [Indiana statute](http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar46/ch1.html#IC35-46-1-4): > > Bolding mine. It goes on to enumerate harsher penalties for different circumstances; it is a Class A Felony if it results in the death of the dependent. It clearly states it must be intentional. > > I await your detraction, I hope it will not be necessary for me to go back and quote the times that you stated that intentionality is not required for the crime of neglect. You mean retraction, not “detraction,” and none is warranted. What I said the parents were guilty of was leaving a baby unattended in a car, which is is explicitly forbidden by statute in and of itself (and the relevant state is Texas, not Indiana). Beyond that, all these parents knew those kids were in the car, so no excuse there under the neglect statute you quoted (not that the Indiana statute is pertinent to Texas anyway). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/276 "2010-06-22T16:59:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I never forget to check my mirrors when changing lanes, and if someone does change lanes without checking, and they cause an accident, they are liable. > > How far can we take this “I forgot” thing. I once got a ticket driving home late at night after a long day at work. I was exhausted. On the way to my apartment at the time, there was a series of lights which blinked red at night, three in a row, then a fourth light which operated normally. The streets were quiet because it was late, and as I got to that stretch of lights, I noticed a police car behind me. I realized I had to be careful to do the stops right at the blinking reds (even though there were no other cars to be seen on any of thos roads), so I did it by the book – full stop. look both ways go, full stop, look both way, go. All four times. Only the fourth time the light wasn’t blinking it was solid. I’d gotten a brain lock and treated it like it was blinking. The cop lit me up and gave me a ticket. > > Should it have been a legal excuse for me to say I just forgot the last light wasn’t blinking? Would that have worked with the judge? Would it have had any legal weight as a defense. The judge has that option. he could have dismissed it . Sometimes courts give concessions to mitigating circumstances and don’t just go by the book. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/277 "2010-06-22T17:04:47Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > This is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. The intent to take a certain action does not necessarily require an intention/knowledge/desire that a specific harmful outcome will occur. Don’t know if I am handcapped by virtue of being a lawyer, but I though **Chicagojeff’s** description in#272 quite well phrased. For better or worse, many plain English words and phrases have specific definitions when used in legal context than when commonly used elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/278 "2010-06-22T17:05:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You mean retraction, not “detraction,” and none is warranted. What I said the parents were guilty of was leaving a baby unattended in a car, which is is explicitly forbidden by statute in and of itself (and the relevant state is Texas, not Indiana). > > Beyond that, all these parents knew those kids were in the car, so no excuse there under the neglect statute you quoted (not that the Indiana statute is pertinent to Texas anyway). Yes, of course retraction. Here is your quote, that I was hoping I would not have to dig up: > [@DtC](#): > > Google any statute. Show me one that says it has to be intentional. “Any statute” includes the Indiana statute. You were not merely arguing about that one specific Texas case, you were arguing about all of these cases in general. You asked for a statute that said it had to be intentional, and I provided one. And you never provided a cite for the Texas statute you keep referring to, despite being asked. I remember the way you used to demolish people who used these kinds of tactics. Wonder where that person went. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/279 "2010-06-22T17:11:12Z")
I was talking about the unattended child statutes, not neglect statutes. Your cite is off point. It is illegal in Texas to leave a baby unattended in a car. It isn’t necessary to interpret a broader neglect statute. Leaving a baby in a car is a specific, delineated crime in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/280 "2010-06-22T17:21:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I was talking about the unattended child statutes, not neglect statutes. Your cite is off point. It is illegal in Texas to leave a baby unattended in a car. It isn’t necessary to interpret a broader neglect statute. Leaving a baby in a car is a specific, delineated crime in itself. When he says “illegal” now, he means an infraction under a strict liability statute, probably in the Vehicle Code. He’s moved on from murder and criminal negligence to an infraction statute with a fine of something like $100, as referenced in the other thread, because he’s got nothing else to hang his hat on at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=15)