# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/301 "2010-06-22T18:54:37Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > So you’re saying they intentionally left the child in the car and walked away knowing they were engaged in the act of killing their child? I’m saying that they knew the kids were in the car. I have no idea what they were thinking when they left the cars, but they all knew the kids were in the cars because they put them there. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/302 "2010-06-22T18:57:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Forgetting does NOT negate knowledge. All those parents knew the kids were in the car. We’ve been through this. There must be concurrence between (1) knowledge or willfulness of exposing a child to a foreseeable risk of harm (mens rea); and (2) the act or omission of exposing the to child that risk (actus reus). You are saying they parent knew the kid was in the car. I am agreeing the parent knew _at one point in time_, but lacked that knowledge _at the time of the actus reus_ due to forgetfulness. Forgetting is a present lack of knowledge of something previously known. There is no concurrence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/303 "2010-06-22T19:01:11Z")
I’m saying that’s bullshit. Forgetting is not a lack of knowledge. The knowledge is still there. Forgetting is not an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/304 "2010-06-22T19:05:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying that they knew the kids were in the car. I have no idea what they were thinking when they left the cars, but they all knew the kids were in the cars because they put them there. So you’re saying the parent intentionally left the child in the car? What else would it be if they knew the child was in the car when they walked away from it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/305 "2010-06-22T19:06:08Z")
I’m not a mind reader. I can’t speak to their intent. But they knew the kids were in the car. None of them dispute that. I’m also saying that forgetting is not the same thing as not knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/306 "2010-06-22T19:09:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m also saying that forgetting is not the same thing as not knowing. Forgetting is involuntary and the law does not typically hold people responsible for involuntary acts or omissions. On the other hand, if I forgot my wife’s birthday, she would ask how I could allow myself to forget something important like that, and I don’t think she would be impressed by an argument that it was involuntary. However, I wouldn’t be condemned to (literal) prison for it either. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/307 "2010-06-22T19:12:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not a mind reader. I can’t speak to their intent. But they knew the kids were in the car. None of them dispute that. > > I’m also saying that forgetting is not the same thing as not knowing. So, by your definition, Biden _is_ a [plagiarist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10183202&postcount=50) then? He knew he had to cite, but he just forgot, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/308 "2010-06-22T19:16:41Z")
No, because he had given the cite plenty of times before. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/309 "2010-06-22T19:17:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, because he had given the cite plenty of times before. But those parents had taken their kids out of the car many times before? What bearing does that have on the time he forgot? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/310 "2010-06-22T19:19:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not a mind reader. I can’t speak to their intent. But they knew the kids were in the car. None of them dispute that. And yeah. Actually, they do dispute that. They thought the child was somewhere else, either at the daycare or with another caregiver. In their minds, the child was NOT in the car. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/311 "2010-06-22T19:44:04Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > But those parents had taken their kids out of the car many times before? What bearing does that have on the time he forgot? One citation covers all uses for plagiarism. Not so for taking a baby out of a car. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/312 "2010-06-22T19:45:33Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > And yeah. Actually, they do dispute that. They thought the child was somewhere else, either at the daycare or with another caregiver. In their minds, the child was NOT in the car. None of them say that. They all said they just forgot. None of the cases in the article were people who never knew the kid was in the car and thought they were at daycare. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/313 "2010-06-22T20:09:11Z")
I’m not going to take the absolutist position of some and say this could never happen to me. It CAN happen, to anyone, given the right/wrong circumstances, as the article cited on pg 1 makes clear. I have to say, Dio, for someone who argues that the mind/self is only brain tissue and chemical reactions, your position on this contradicts that position…read the article and the explaination of exactly how the brain functions and how such a thing CAN happen to even the brightest, best, and most normally aware. What exactly renders YOUR particular brain immune to sort of functioning/malfunctioning described by the scientist in the article? I mean, it CAN’T be some moral, personal superiority, since there is no such thing…only a piece of meat between your ears like anyone else has, right?. :dubious: In my opinion, one reason this increasingly happens is the degree of distractions and divisions in our lives. Technologies which allow us to be constantly “on call” and hectic schedules/routines. I feel very strongly that this is not something which would have ever happened to me, NOT because I’m not capable of such a mistake, but because of my circumstances at the time my kids were young. I was either a SAH mom (for 18 mths with my 1st child) OR I ran my own business and had the kids with me there (at home or at our shop) OR (for 4 yrs or so with my 1st) worked as a preschool teacher and had my son at the same school. So not only was I joined at the hip with them virtually constantly and would have noticed any absence over a few minutes in duration (it was a special event to get a few hours alone!) but it was never a case of dropping them off somewhere else (and the assumption that can be made that I DID and that they were safe elsewhere). But such is a rare situation…just happened to be mine. As a preschool teacher for many years in Texas, many schools (incl. those where I worked…I made sure of it!) had a policy of calling parents if a child didn’t show up for school and we hadn’t been informed of an absence in advance. One of the main reasons was that THIS CAN HAPPEN, and we wanted to make damn sure it hadn’t. A quick call to mom or dad could save a life. Seems there would be some simple, inexpensive sort of monitoring technology which could be developed and built into infant/toddler seats that would sound periodically when a child is in a car seat…just a small DING! every 5 minutes or so that could trigger the driver to remember they have a passenger. And possibly a secondary alarm which would go off when the car was turned off/parked (though that would be more complicated, probably). This is just such a horrible, tragic thing…☹ ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/314 "2010-06-22T20:14:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of them say that. They all said they just forgot. None of the cases in the article were people who never knew the kid was in the car and thought they were at daycare. Yes, there WAS one such case in the article…the woman THOUGHT her child was with the babysitter, until the end of the day and she called the sitter and was told..“um, he’s with YOU!” And plenty of other cases in which that was exactly what the parent assumed all day while their child was dying. Yes, they “forgot”, but it took the form of editing their memory (something you cite quite a bit as an explaination for what you consider faulty recollection of reality) to convince themselves that they had dropped the child off or that their spouse had. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/315 "2010-06-22T20:14:49Z")
Like I’ve been saying, it’s not that I think I’m immune to going on auto-pilot or spacing things out – on the contary, I’m more prone to that than most. I spend probably about 70% of my waking hours with my head up my ass. It’s because I know that about myself that I institute check routines when leaving my house or leaving my car. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/316 "2010-06-22T20:16:56Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Yes, there WAS one such case in the article…the woman THOUGHT her child was with the babysitter, until the end of the day and she called the sitter and was told..“um, he’s with YOU!” That woman just never dropped the kid off. It’s not like somebidy told her the kid was with the sitter. She just said she’d forgotten to drop the kid off. She DID know the kid was in the car to begin with. To me, lack of knowledge would mean that they NEVER knew the kid was in the car ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/317 "2010-06-22T20:26:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That woman just never dropped the kid off. It’s not like somebidy told her the kid was with the sitter. She just said she’d forgotten to drop the kid off. She DID know the kid was in the car to begin with. > > To me, lack of knowledge would mean that they NEVER knew the kid was in the car And there have been such cases. Cases in which the spouse or someone else had strapped the child in to be dropped off and due to miscommunication, the driving parent never knew. WTH difference does THAT really make? Given the memory editing you obviously accept in other situations? Does it not apply here? Or does it just not matter to you that it applies? The end result is the same: the person DIDN’T KNOW in the present that the child was in the car. Having routines and check-lists is great, but as was pointed out, these things often happen precisely because there has been a change in routine or some other distracting chain of events that muck up the usual functioning of the brain. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/318 "2010-06-22T20:37:10Z")
Yeah, I’m going to have to say that if you ask someone, “Where’s your kid?” and the answer, truthfully given, is anything other than, “In my car,” then you cannot reasonably say that that person “knows their child is in the car.” That’s like saying that I know where my car keys are because I am the one who put them down last night, even though I have since forgotten where my car keys are and have no earthly idea where they might be. Yes, at the moment of putting them down, I knew where they were. Now I don’t. Saying that I “know” where they are is ridiculous. So is saying that someone “knows” their kid is in the car when they have a distinct memory of dropping the child off at daycare that morning and think that’s where the kid is now. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/319 "2010-06-22T20:39:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So the test is purely whether they say it was an accident? The ones who intentionally leave their kids in the car while they go to gamble or get their hair done get a free pass if they just say, “I forgot.” As with any testimony, you listen to what they have to say and then judge if it’s credible. I find it hard to believe you actually read that whole article linked above and concluded that every single one of those parents was a liar who deliberately murdered their kids. There’s cynicism, and then there’s willful blindness to anything that doesn’t fit your misanthropic world view. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re the one who wants to legalize cooking babies in cars and you say I’M not compassionate? My compassionate is for the victims here. These are not CD’s getting warped on a dashboard. These are completely helpless, suffering, innocent little victims. The people who cook them are not. Man, I knew that response was coming. Believe it or not, you can feel sorry for the kids who died, and also feel sorry for the parents who accidentally killed their kids. In my book, they’ve both suffered horribly. And yeah, clearly “Let’s legalize cooking babies” is an accurate summation of my position.:rolleyes: Do you just get off on the sound of your own screeching rhetoric, or what? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/320 "2010-06-22T20:41:35Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > That’s like saying that I know where my car keys are because I am the one who put them down last night, even though I have since forgotten where my car keys are and have no earthly idea where they might be. It’s more like saying you know your car keys are on the kitchen counter because you put them there, even though you’d swear up and down that they’re in your purse because that’s where they _usually_ are, and you don’t realize you just left them on the counter. But yeah, I agree with your general point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=17)