# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/121 "2010-06-20T17:16:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Does that involve negligence by the parents? A child being left alone in the car is not a random, unpredicable event outside the parents’ control. Good fucking grief. It is when they FORGOT the kid was in the car in the first place. Or do you actually think people plan on forgetting? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/122 "2010-06-20T17:18:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Not if it’s intentional. Do you believe that’s what occurred here? How should I know? That’s my point. How can ANYBODY tell if its intentional or not? What would be the means of making that determination? If they cry a lot, they’re innocent? Susan Smith cried a lot. Casey Anthony cried a lot. So what? If a parent leaves a baby in a car, and the baby dies, and those facts are agreed to, we have a case of negligent homicide. If you want to make an exception and let them go if the act was unintentional, somebody is going to have to PROVE it was unintentional. How do you do that? Are you going to let them go unless intentionality can _also_ be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? In that case, you’d be making it awfully easy to get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/123 "2010-06-20T17:20:07Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Goof fucking grief. > > It is when they FORGOT the kid was in the car in the first place. Or do you actually think people plan on forgetting? If you give them the loophole, there definitely are parents who would plan on “forgetting.” Forgetting is not an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/124 "2010-06-20T17:21:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How should I know? That’s my point. How can ANYBODY tell if its intentional or not? What would be the means of making that determination? If they cry a lot, they’re innocent? Susan Smith cried a lot. Casey Anthony cried a lot. So what? > > If a parent leaves a baby in a car, and the baby dies, and those facts are agreed to, we have a case of negligent homicide. If you want to make an exception and let them go if the act was unintentional, somebody is going to have to PROVE it was unintentional. How do you do that? Are you going to let them go unless intentionality can _also_ be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? In that case, you’d be making it awfully easy to get away with. You would deduce this the same way you would with any other crime. Why would it be different here? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/125 "2010-06-20T17:23:39Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > So, if someone darts from behind a car, and is killed by a motorist, should the driver be arrested? This is not a profitable analogy. It does not involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. Forgetting a baby is negligence. It’s not an excuse, it’s a negligent act in itself. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/126 "2010-06-20T17:26:25Z")
It certainly does involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. If the driver had been paying attention to his surroundings more carefully, he could have seen the person about to run into the street. I’m not just trying to be cute, either; there are plenty of times that I’ve been driving along, seen children playing very near to the street, and slowed to almost a crawl, just in case one of them darted out in front of me. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/127 "2010-06-20T17:27:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > if the act was unintentional, somebody is going to have to PROVE it was unintentional. guilty until proven innocent…no, wait, innocent until…which is it? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/128 "2010-06-20T17:27:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you give them the loophole, there definitely are parents who would plan on “forgetting.” > > Forgetting is not an excuse. When your kids are molested by a pedophile, I am just going to assume that you as a parent just didn’t work hard enough to protect your children and therefore you are a bad parent. I mean the proof is in the pudding isnt it? Bad results for child equals bad parent. Its obvious right? Or maybe that you even PLANNED for it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/129 "2010-06-20T17:28:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You would deduce this the same way you would with any other crime. Why would it be different here? How exactly are you defining the “crime” now? The act of leaving a baby in the car until it dies IS the crime. If that much is proven, the crime is proven. What _other_ circumstances are you suggesting should be present? It sounds like you’re saying the state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parent did it on purpose. Is that what you’re saying? If that’s the case, you’re essentially making it legal, since it would be virtually impossible to ever prove intentionality unless the person confessed to someone. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/130 "2010-06-20T17:28:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is not a profitable analogy. It does not involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. Forgetting a baby is negligence. It’s not an excuse, it’s a negligent act in itself. That’s not what a number of juries have decided. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/131 "2010-06-20T17:31:31Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > It certainly does involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. If the driver had been paying attention to his surroundings more carefully, he could have seen the person about to run into the street. I’m not just trying to be cute, either; there are plenty of times that I’ve been driving along, seen children playing very near to the street, and slowed to almost a crawl, just in case one of them darted out in front of me. Well, the details weren’t described very well. It all boils down to individual circumstances whether or not the driver was negligent. That is something that can be worked out forensically. What was going on in a parent’s mind when he/she left a baby in the car is not. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/132 "2010-06-20T17:31:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How exactly are you dfining the “crime” now? The act of leaving a baby in the car until it dies IS the crime. What other circumstances are you suggesting should be present? > > It sounds like you’re saying the court should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parent did it on purpose. Is that what you’re saying? If that’s the case, you’re essentially making it legal, since it would be virtually impossible to ever prove intentionality unless the person confessed to someone. No. It’s not that hard. If the mother just began an affair and wanted out of the marriage, and if she’d been complaining about the burden of having a child, if they’d just taken out a large insurance policy on the kid, that kind of thing, you might have some evidence that suggests a deliberate act. Why would intent to harm be assumed as a matter of law? How the hell does that make sense? You evaluate each case on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/133 "2010-06-20T17:34:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s not what a number of juries have decided. I don’t care. I’m not asking those juries anything, I’m asking whether people posting _here_ think leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legalized. They seem to think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/134 "2010-06-20T17:35:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > No. It’s not that hard. If the mother just began an affair and wanted out of the marriage, and if she’d been complaining about the burden of having a child, if they’d just taken out a large insurance policy on the kid, that kind of thing, you might have some evidence that suggests a deliberate act. Why would intent to harm be assumed as a matter of law? How the hell does that make sense? You evaluate each case on its own merits. Are you saying intentionality should have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? What exactly are you sying the law should be? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/135 "2010-06-20T17:36:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t care. I’m not asking those juries anything, I’m asking whether people posting _here_ think leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legalized. They seem to think it does. I don’t think anyone is saying that. You’re creating a false dilemma: it’s always a criminal act or it’s a free pass. How about a third option–evaluate each case on its own merits, as we do with any other potential crime, considering background details, intent, any other evidence. That’s what those juries did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/136 "2010-06-20T17:37:03Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > When your kids are molested by a pedophile, I am just going to assume that you as a parent just didn’t work hard enough to protect your children and therefore you are a bad parent. I mean the proof is in the pudding isnt it? Bad results for child equals bad parent. Its obvious right? Or maybe that you even PLANNED for it to happen. What is the specific, negigent act with _forseeable_ risks that you see present in this analogy? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/137 "2010-06-20T17:38:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are you saying intentionality should have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? What exactly are you sying the law should be? That each case should be evaluated based on the available evidence, just like every other potential crime. If someone deliberately did such an act, they should be put away. But if someone had zero intent (as determined as best we can), then it’s a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/138 "2010-06-20T17:39:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is the specific, negigent act with _forseeable_ risks that you see present in this analogy? You are the one that thinks pedophiles lurk around every corner. Therefore, if you ever let a child outa your sight…well you knew the risks and takes your chances right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/139 "2010-06-20T17:40:47Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > guilty until proven innocent…no, wait, innocent until…which is it? Guilty untilproven innocent, but in thsese circumstances, guilt already HAS been proven. Leaving a baby in the car is a crime in itself, and if those facts are not disputed by the defendant, then you have proof of guilt. The issue is that some people apparently want to _change_ the law so that it is NOT automatically a crime to leave a baby in the car as long as they snivel a lot and say they “forgot” when they get caught. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/140 "2010-06-20T17:42:14Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > You are the one that thinks pedophiles lurk around every corner. > Therefore, if you ever let a child outa your sight…well you knew the risks and takes your chances right? What is the specific, negligent act with forseeable risks you are asking me about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=8)