# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/141 "2010-06-20T17:42:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t care. I’m not asking those juries anything, I’m asking whether people posting _here_ think leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legalized. They seem to think it does. Gawd, thats some nuclear strength stupidity there. Do YOU think anybody here thinks it should be legalized? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/142 "2010-06-20T17:43:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It sounds like you’re saying the state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parent did it on purpose. Is that what you’re saying? If that’s the case, you’re essentially making it legal, since it would be virtually impossible to ever prove intentionality unless the person confessed to someone. 😕 That’s how the criminal justice system works - innocent till proven guilty. Following your logic, if you assume that the parent probably did it on purpose then there’s no way that the parent can prove otherwise. The death should certainly be investigated by the police and any discrepancies followed up. (‘He said he couldn’t hear the child, but a passer-by said he could,’ etc). The parent should be thoroughly questioned, even if the questioning upsets them - it’s not like no killer ever confesses. Social services should investigate to see whether it’s part of a pattern of abuse and/or neglect. But automatically assuming the parents are guilty would be insane. My GF once forgot to pick my daughter up from school because I was always the one who did that; it was a break in routine. That doesn’t mean we’re neglectful, terrible parents, but that we’re imperfect human beings. None of us are perfect; it’s completely impossible to be a perfect parent anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/143 "2010-06-20T17:43:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Guilty untilproven innocent, but in thsese circumstances, guilt already HAS been proven. Leaving a baby in the car is a crime in itself, and if those facts are not disputed by the defendant, then you have proof of guilt. > > The issue is that some people apparently want to _change_ the law so that it is NOT automatically a crime to leave a baby in the car as long as they snivel a lot and say they “forgot” when they get caught. You may not like it, but intent is a factor in our criminal justice system. You’re re-writing the system here, not anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/144 "2010-06-20T17:44:17Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That each case should be evaluated based on the available evidence, just like every other potential crime. If someone deliberately did such an act, they should be put away. But if someone had zero intent (as determined as best we can), then it’s a different matter. You’re not answering my question. Precisely how would you write the law? What circumstances would have to be proven in court to find the parents guilty? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/145 "2010-06-20T17:45:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is the specific, negligent act with forseeable risks you are asking me about? You let them outa your sight and the pedo’s got em. THATS the act. You knew the risks. And if a pedo pulls a gun on you while you are with your child, you just should have prepared for that possibility as well and been better armed and wore kevlar vest and took ninja training courses and so on and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/146 "2010-06-20T17:45:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You may not like it, but intent is a factor in our criminal justice system. You’re re-writing the system here, not anyone else. Show me where any statute says that intent is a factor in the legality of leaving a baby in a car. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/147 "2010-06-20T17:47:43Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > You let them outa your sight and the pedo’s got em. THATS the act. You knew the risks. > > And if a pedo pulls a gun on you while you are with your child, you just should have prepared for that possibility as well and been better armed and wore kevlar vest and took ninja training courses and so on and so on. What specific negligent act with forseeable risks are you asking me about? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/148 "2010-06-20T17:49:25Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Gawd, thats some nuclear strength stupidity there. Do YOU think anybody here thinks it should be legalized? That’s what I’M trying to find out. Apparently, they at least think the law should be changed so that intentionality has to be proven. If that’s the case, they’d be making it almost impossible to get convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/149 "2010-06-20T17:49:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re not answering my question. Precisely how would you write the law? What circumstances would have to be proven in court to find the parents guilty? I did answer your question, and I even gave you a hypothetical. A deliberate or criminally negligent action that puts a child in a circumstance where it was reasonable to assume that child would die is a felony. How’s that? The prosecutor, and if it comes to it, the jury, can decide if the act was deliberate or criminally negligent. Just like for any other crime. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/150 "2010-06-20T17:51:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Guilty untilproven innocent, . I’m pretty sure our system doesn’t work that way, is what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/151 "2010-06-20T17:54:41Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > 😕 That’s how the criminal justice system works - innocent till proven guilty. Intentionality is not currently required for the parent to be guilty of the crime. It is a crime to leave a baby in a car. The law does not say it has to be intentional. If it is agreed that the parent left a baby in the car, then it is agreed that the parent committed the crime. No other circumstance has to be present. It’s not legally relevant if the parent did it on purpose. If it can be proven that the parent left the abby in the car then, under current statutes, the burden of proof has already been met. Whether it was an accident is neither here nor there. Intent does not have to be proven for the crime to be proven. it sounds like a lot of people think the laws should be _changed_ so that intentionality _does_ have to be proven, but that is currently not the case, so that issue has no reference to the presemption of innocence in these crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/152 "2010-06-20T17:55:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Show me where any statute says that intent is a factor in the legality of leaving a baby in a car. Dude, you’re grasping here. Intent is a factor in every crime, that’s how our criminal justice system works. You know that, right? It doesn’t need to be recorded in every law, “..and this one, too, will consider intent in determining guilt or in the exercise of prosecutorial discretion…” Or let me word it differently, since you think we’re re-writing law. Show me where it says this is automatically a criminal act, regardless of intent. That is at odds with the actions of juries and prosecutors all over the country. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/153 "2010-06-20T17:56:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Intentionality is not currently required for the parent to be guilty of the crime. It is a crime to leave a baby in a car. The law does not say it has to be intentional. If it is agreed that the parent left a baby in the car, then it is agreed that the parent committed the crime. No other circumstance has to be present. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/154 "2010-06-20T17:57:39Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > I’m pretty sure our system doesn’t work that way, is what I’m saying. I meant to say that the other way around. I can’t believe I did that. I meant to say the presumption of innocence still obtains, yes of course, but that the burden is already met if it is undisputed that a parent left a baby in the car. Intentionality is not something that has to be proven, only that they did it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/155 "2010-06-20T17:58:43Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Cite please. Google any statute. Show me one that says it has to be intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/156 "2010-06-20T18:00:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I did answer your question, and I even gave you a hypothetical. A deliberate or criminally negligent action that puts a child in a circumstance where it was reasonable to assume that child would die is a felony. Leaving a baby in a car is automatically criminally negligent by statute. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/157 "2010-06-20T18:03:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Google any statute. Show me one that says it has to be intentional. I’m asserting that intent is a well-established element of our criminal justice system. If you need a cite for that, you’re playing games, especially on a topic where it has been cited in this very thread that prosecutors and juries alike have determined no crime occurred even when it was admitted that the parent in question left the kid in the car. You, OTOH, are asserting that the act, by itself, once established, is automatically a crime, regardless of intent, in contradiction of the well-established concept I just mentioned and the multitude of cases where that is NOT how the law was applied. You can’t support your contention because it’s unsupportable. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/158 "2010-06-20T18:04:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Leaving a baby in a car is automatically criminally negligent by statute. This is argument by assertion. There are countless juries, judges and prosecutors who contradict this contention. They were all wrong, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/159 "2010-06-20T18:06:36Z")
Show me a statute that says that intentionality must be proven. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/160 "2010-06-20T18:07:05Z")
Diogenes, you have become a joke. I’m done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=9)