# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/161 "2010-06-20T18:10:05Z")
People are talking in circles. Here’s a basic ground rule on [criminal negligence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence). There are some basic levels of intent in law sufficient to give rise to civil or criminal culpability: Negligence (basic, civil, ordinary, or simple negligence) Gross Negligence Recklessness Intentional My understanding is that criminal negligence is a higher standard than basic or civil negligence. In order for negligence to become criminal, it has to be at least gross negligence. [Explanation 1](http://www.californiacriminaldefenseblog.com/criminal_negligence/) [Explanation 2](http://www.shouselaw.com/criminal-negligence.html) Now that you have some ground rules, you can discuss how the law applies to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/162 "2010-06-20T18:28:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is ignorance involved with this, not just negligence. It’s not necessarily forseeable or knowable to a lot of parents that taking their kids to McDonalds could make them diabetic. It’s forseeable to all of them that leaving a baby in a hot car could kill it. Where is this enormous rock these are parents apparently living under? Are they not taking their kids to pediatricians? Are the pediatricians neglecting to warn the parents of the significant health risks associated with poor diet and obesity? Are they not intentionally and consistently opting for unhealthy meals ‘because that’s all Jeffrey will eat’ and dismissing the child’s ensuing obesity problem? How is ignorance any more an acceptable excuse than forgetfulness? You still haven’t established that the parents leaving their babies in a hot car are doing so intentionally. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/163 "2010-06-20T18:35:13Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You still haven’t established that the parents leaving their babies in a hot car are doing so intentionally. I’m not seeing how intent matters when it comes to negligence. If I try to fight the weeds in my yard with a flamethrower and accidentally burn down my neighbor’s house, does it matter that I didn’t want it to happen? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/164 "2010-06-20T18:35:59Z")
To quote from explanation 2 by Bearflag70: > [@](#): > > With respect to child or elder abuse…directly inflicting physical abuse on a child or an elder requires a general intent to inflict unjustifiable pain and suffering. Under these circumstances, criminal negligence does not come into play. > > Criminal negligence only becomes relevant when the defendant is accused of willfully allowing a child or elder to be placed in a harmful or dangerous situation where the person are likely to be injured…not when the defendant is accused of intentionally abusing that individual.17 > > ``` > Example: Ted drives with his infant baby in the front seat. Ted straps around an adult seat belt rather than placing the baby in his child seat. A collision occurs and the baby is thrust into the windshield. > > Under these circumstances, the father could be charged with placing the child in a situation likely to result in great bodily injury or death. As a result, criminal negligence would be the appropriate standard by which to judge him. A reasonable person would know that a baby needs to be properly restrained. Defendant’s conduct could appropriately be labeled gross, aggravated, and an extreme departure from how an "ordinary" person would behave. > > ``` Based on this explanation, I would argue that leaving a child in a car seat in a hot car would qualify as criminal negligence, since it was willingly putting a child in harm’s way, even though they were not “intentionally abusing” the child. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/165 "2010-06-20T18:44:25Z")
> [@MD12](#): > > To quote from explanation 2 by Bearflag70: > > Based on this explanation, I would argue that leaving a child in a car seat in a hot car would qualify as criminal negligence, since it was willingly putting a child in harm’s way, even though they were not “intentionally abusing” the child. Yes, but thats still somebody INTENTIONALLY doing something generally known to NOT BE SAFE. They didnt intentionally hurt the child but they did intentionally expose the kid to danger. Kids left in a car because someone FORGOT to get them out were NOT intentionally exposed to danger. Unless you think people intentionally forget :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/166 "2010-06-20T18:50:22Z")
> [@MD12](#): > > To quote from explanation 2 by Bearflag70: > > Based on this explanation, I would argue that leaving a child in a car seat in a hot car would qualify as criminal negligence, since it was willingly putting a child in harm’s way, even though they were not “intentionally abusing” the child. Based on that explanation, I’d say the opposite: that intent has to be proven for criminal negligence to be proven. It seems that the courts generally agree with that interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/167 "2010-06-20T18:59:08Z")
Here’s my recent thread on child endangerment where people are charged for leaving a child in a car even though no actual harm results. [Understanding Child Endangerment - Baby left alone in car](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559939) ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/168 "2010-06-20T19:11:58Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I’m not seeing how intent matters when it comes to negligence. If I try to fight the weeds in my yard with a flamethrower and accidentally burn down my neighbor’s house, does it matter that I didn’t want it to happen? Because you are \*aware \*of your act and are performing it willfully with the intent of burning something. If you, in your carelessness, burn down your neighbor’s house it will be easy to demonstrate that you are criminally negligent since you are a) knowingly operating a flamethrower for purposes that b) no reasonable person would use a flamethrower in a c) careless manner with disregard for the safety of property and person. The differences in the argument seem to rest with whether the parents knowingly left their children in the car seat. The article seems to indicate that they they did not and there doesn’t seem to be any indication that they did. Forgetting, even important details, is a particularly common human trait. If someone forgets to change the battery in their fire alarm are they criminally negligent when the house burns down with their kid inside it? If they forget to rotate the tires are they criminally negligent when a tire blows out on the highway and their kid dies in the accident? If they forget to replace the electrical outlet cover are they criminally negligent when their baby sticks a toy in the socket and dies? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/169 "2010-06-20T19:17:38Z")
> [@MD12](#): > > To quote from explanation 2 by Bearflag70: > > Based on this explanation, I would argue that leaving a child in a car seat in a hot car would qualify as criminal negligence, since it was willingly putting a child in harm’s way, even though they were not “intentionally abusing” the child. I disagree. I think it actually says the opposite since you’re not willingly putting a child in harm’s way when you put them in the seat. Rather, you’re doing the right and lawful thing in keeping them safe while riding in a car. Unless the parent willingly and/or willfully walks away from the car fully aware and conscious that the child is still in the car seat and in grave danger of imminent suffering and/or death, it’s not criminal negligence or child endangerment as there is no will involved. It’s a horribly tragic accident. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/170 "2010-06-20T20:09:49Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I disagree. I think it actually says the opposite since you’re not willingly putting a child in harm’s way when you put them in the seat. Rather, you’re doing the right and lawful thing in keeping them safe while riding in a car. Unless the parent willingly and/or willfully walks away from the car fully aware and conscious that the child is still in the car seat and in grave danger of imminent suffering and/or death, it’s not criminal negligence or child endangerment as there is no will involved. It’s a horribly tragic accident. Bingo. “Willfully” is the operative word, the one ignored or misunderstood by MD12 and Diogenes. How could someone be guilty of “willfully allowing a child or elder to be placed in a harmful or dangerous situation” when that person was not aware that the dangerous circumstance existed. Again, this is not a situation where a parent deliberately left a child in the car, hoping for the best. This is a parent who, to his devastation, only later discovers what he had done. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/171 "2010-06-20T20:16:33Z")
OK, so imagine a parent who feels ill, pulls over to a safe spot, and gets out of the car to vomit, leaving the child in the car. They then faint. When they come round, the child has died of hyperthermia. Is that parent guilty of a crime? Dio, what say you? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/172 "2010-06-20T20:50:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Diogenes, you have become a joke. I’m done. Hey, I started a BBQ pit thread just for this occasion. If you need to let it out, you know where to go! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/173 "2010-06-20T21:12:06Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > The differences in the argument seem to rest with whether the parents knowingly left their children in the car seat. The article seems to indicate that they they did not and there doesn’t seem to be any indication that they did. Forgetting, even important details, is a particularly common human trait. I’m still not convinced. As a parent, you have a responsibility for your child’s safety when you take him or her out of the house. Forgetting that they’re with you is a pretty significant breach of that responsibility. Say you take your kid to the playground, run into some friends and decide to go grab a bite to eat and catch up, leaving the kid at the playground unattended. How is that not negligence? Or, to put it another way, imagine you hired someone to babysit your kids who forgot to watch them and they ended up dying. Do you really think you’re not going to press charges for criminal negligence? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/174 "2010-06-20T21:12:14Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You still haven’t established that the parents leaving their babies in a hot car are doing so intentionally. It doesn’t _have_ to be established. Intent is irreelvant. No intent is necessary for it to be negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/175 "2010-06-20T21:14:02Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Because you are \*aware \*of your act and are performing it willfully with the intent of burning something. It’s legally irrelevant in the acse of leaving a baby in the car. No intent is required in order for it to be a crime. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not a legal excuse to say you forgot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/176 "2010-06-20T21:15:30Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > OK, so imagine a parent who feels ill, pulls over to a safe spot, and gets out of the car to vomit, leaving the child in the car. They then faint. When they come round, the child has died of hyperthermia. > > Is that parent guilty of a crime? Dio, what say you? The parent did not leave the child. The parent became incapacitated. That’s different. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/177 "2010-06-20T21:17:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s legally irrelevant in the acse of leaving a baby in the car. No intent is required in order for it to be a crime. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not a legal excuse to say you forgot. Why are you ignoring so many posts on this thread? You’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/178 "2010-06-20T21:25:09Z")
What post has proven me wrong? Show me a statute that says intent is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/179 "2010-06-20T21:35:15Z")
> [@Joanie](#): > > . For example, you write, “ **If the parents did leave them in the car on purpose, then they ought to be left in a hot car all day as well** ”. To my way of thinking, this is an extreme attitude. You would want to see the parents put to a sweltering death for what could have been a mistake? No, I meant “on purpose” as in “intentionally left them in the hot car, knowing what the consequences would be.” As in murder. If they left them in the car on purpose, but were just ignorant or plain dumb, then no, I don’t advocate roasting them alive. I do think there ought to be some sort of public penalty though; people ought to think twice about that kind of thing, and unfortunately, without repeated reinforcement of thinking twice about leaving their kids in the car, it won’t sink in. Remember, a lot of people fall into the category that probably didn’t quite understand the President’s 10th grade level speech the other night. Asking them to think ahead and realize that 5 minutes might be ok, but 25 isn’t ok, is probably not a good bet to take. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/180 "2010-06-20T21:43:23Z")
> [@bump](#): > > No, I meant “on purpose” as in “intentionally left them in the hot car, knowing what the consequences would be.” As in murder. > > If they left them in the car on purpose, but were just ignorant or plain dumb, then no, I don’t advocate roasting them alive. I do think there ought to be some sort of public penalty though; people ought to think twice about that kind of thing, and unfortunately, without repeated reinforcement of thinking twice about leaving their kids in the car, it won’t sink in. > > Remember, a lot of people fall into the category that probably didn’t quite understand the President’s 10th grade level speech the other night. Asking them to think ahead and realize that 5 minutes might be ok, but 25 isn’t ok, is probably not a good bet to take. I won’t even concede that five minutes is okay–not if going into a store or whatnot. You never know when you’re going to be delayed or distracted. But I’m not objective on this issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=10)