# Texas Tuition Bill - thoughts. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490 "2016-08-30T16:12:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/21 "2016-08-31T00:36:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > “Everyone else does it” has never been an acceptable argument. That’s not the bulk of the argument. The argument is that it is a necessary evil of dynamic pricing. If I am charging someone X, and someone else Y, then you can argue one person is always going to be subsidizing another. Whether it’s airplane tickets, hotels, or clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/22 "2016-08-31T02:15:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Interesting to see that no one has refuted this point. With the enormous college debts Dopers complain about, is there really a good reason for this? Do Texas students get to put it against tax as a charitable donation? > > It would certainly gall me if I had $100K in debts of which $15K was a donation to someone else. So you’d rather that $15K just be pure profit for the college? I’ve not seen anyone in this thread state outright that tuition would go down as a result of cutting the set-aside; even if the colleges technically don’t have a column marked “profit” on their balance sheets, money used to pay salaries or invest in physical plant operations or similar is effectively the same thing, and nobody has promised that the $15K _wouldn’t_ be used in such a fashion were the set-aside done away with. Such artful implications are the stock in trade of the political world. This isn’t even a very good one. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/23 "2016-08-31T02:38:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. The tuition at a school almost never pays the cost of educating a student. For example, Harvard [spends](http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/institution/harvard-university-ma/scorecard/cost-per-student/) around $84k per student per year. Cost of [attendance](https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-attendance) is about $60k. The rest of the money is essentially a subsidy from rich, former students and the government. This is true at almost all schools. All students are not paying their own way per se. I’m not following this. If even the full-_price_ students aren’t paying the full _cost_, isn’t that subsidy coming from the endowment? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/24 "2016-08-31T05:24:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Harvard [spends](http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/institution/harvard-university-ma/scorecard/cost-per-student/) around $84k per student per year. I’d love to see the breakdown of that Instruction number. Assuming each student takes 4 classes and an average of 20 students per class would put the cost for each class at $200,000. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/25 "2016-08-31T08:32:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > That’s not the bulk of the argument. It was the argument presented. > [@Derleth](#): > > So you’d rather that $15K just be pure profit for the college? I’d rather not pay it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/26 "2016-08-31T11:49:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I’d love to see the breakdown of that Instruction number. Assuming each student takes 4 classes and an average of 20 students per class would put the cost for each class at $200,000. There’s some infrastructure and non-class expense involved. Despite the attempt of schools like Phoenix and National to run “universities” out of hotel rooms, there’s a certain overhead in providing everything that supports those four classes for that student. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/27 "2016-08-31T13:43:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t want to defund student aid, but nor do I think it’s fair to expect the costs to be borne by other students, when it rightfully should be borne by the state. How do you think taxes work? How do you think ObamaCare works? One group of people subsidize the rest. The state is the people. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/28 "2016-08-31T14:02:44Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > How do you think taxes work? > How do you think ObamaCare works? > > One group of people subsidize the rest. The state is the people. I get that- my point is why are ONLY other students subsidizing the underprivileged at a 15% rate? Seems to me that the group that should be doing the subsidizing is the state as a whole, not other students. That, right there, is what I object to, not the idea that there’s financial aid, or that it’s funded by other people. It’s the idea that students, who objectively are having enough trouble funding college at the current rates, are effectively paying a 15% tax for the privilege, and that in many (most?) cases, are having to finance that over decades. That doesn’t seem fair. \*\*Ravenman’s \*\*solution is ideal, but that comes down to whether the current Texas Legislature would actually fund that. But that consideration doesn’t have any bearing on whether it’s philosophically fair to the other students. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/29 "2016-08-31T14:40:20Z")
[deleted] I’m bad at math. Will come back later with new math. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/30 "2016-08-31T14:45:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s the idea that students, who objectively are having enough trouble funding college at the current rates, are effectively paying a 15% tax for the privilege, and that in many (most?) cases, are having to finance that over decades. > > That doesn’t seem fair. Most government agencies don’t have the authority to tax the general public. They do have the authority to levy fees. The University of Texas is a government agency, so it’s funding itself under the means it has it its disposal. This is the same manner in which private colleges and universities fund themselves, so in that sense there is precedent in the market. While you wish this burden was shared with a broader base of funders, apparently the state legislature disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/31 "2016-08-31T14:49:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I get that- my point is why are ONLY other students subsidizing the underprivileged at a 15% rate? Seems to me that the group that should be doing the subsidizing is the state as a whole, not other students. If I’m reading the numbers right, it appears that it is in fact the state as a whole that is subsidizing everyone, including the full-paying students. That 15% “tax” just decreases the state subsidy somewhat. The actual [cost per student at TAMU](http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/institution/Texas-A--M-University-TX/scorecard/cost-per-student/) is over $15k/year. So even full-paying students are receiving a state-subsidized education. We could have the same outcome by raising tuition 15% and giving out more aid. Unless I’m missing some fees or costs along the way, which is entirely likely. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/32 "2016-08-31T15:09:23Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most government agencies don’t have the authority to tax the general public. They do have the authority to levy fees. The University of Texas is a government agency, so it’s funding itself under the means it has it its disposal. This is the same manner in which private colleges and universities fund themselves, so in that sense there is precedent in the market. > > While you wish this burden was shared with a broader base of funders, apparently the state legislature disagrees. This isn’t fees though; this is a state legislature mandate from 2003 to all public universities. If it was a variable fee that each university was levying based on their need, and you could shop around if you really wanted, that would be something different. Instead, this is something the Legislature mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/33 "2016-08-31T15:35:23Z")
My bad, I wasn’t aware. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/34 "2016-08-31T16:01:28Z")
Except for the diploma mills, I don’t think any colleges are profit making. The full tuition payments and fees do not cover the costs so every student is being subsidized. Those with larger scholarships are being subsidized more. I suspect this 15% that is bandied about is an accounting restriction simply to make sure that some fraction of the money available is indeed used for scholarships and not library books, salaries, etc. As even students paying the full amount are not covering average costs, there really isn’t 15% extra available. They’re only deciding which accounting column to write the entry in. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/35 "2016-08-31T16:30:56Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Except for the diploma mills, I don’t think any colleges are profit making. The full tuition payments and fees do not cover the costs so every student is being subsidized. Those with larger scholarships are being subsidized more. I suspect this 15% that is bandied about is an accounting restriction simply to make sure that some fraction of the money available is indeed used for scholarships and not library books, salaries, etc. As even students paying the full amount are not covering average costs, there really isn’t 15% extra available. They’re only deciding which accounting column to write the entry in. Hmm. What interest is it to the administrators, presidents, coaches, etc that the university is “profitable” if the salary checks cash and the benefit packages stay funded? Profit is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/36 "2016-08-31T17:40:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hmm. What interest is it to the administrators, presidents, coaches, etc that the university is “profitable” if the salary checks cash and the benefit packages stay funded? Profit is irrelevant. Nonprofit doesn’t mean no one profits, especially not the highly-paid coaching staff. Which can only be paid if student rolls are maxed out. Which they often are because the school has a badass football team. Excuse any circularity as entirely intended. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/37 "2016-08-31T17:54:01Z")
Not just the coaching staff. One of the reasons that college costs have exploded recently is the large number of administrators (vice presidents, directors, etc) at many schools while the schools are hiring fewer tenured professors. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/38 "2016-08-31T18:59:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m not following this. If even the full-_price_ students aren’t paying the full _cost_, isn’t that subsidy coming from the endowment? Often times yes. The endowment is typically funded by the government or former students. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I’d love to see the breakdown of that Instruction number. Assuming each student takes 4 classes and an average of 20 students per class would put the cost for each class at $200,000. The cost of instruction is not just a function of the cost of actually running one class. It includes everything from research being done, to roofs being replaced. > [@Quartz](#): > > It was the argument presented. > > No, it was not. That is not at all a fair or complete summation. > I’d rather not pay it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/39 "2016-08-31T19:16:18Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The cost of instruction is not just a function of the cost of actually running one class. It includes everything from research being done, to roofs being replaced. Well no because research is often paid by grants and there is a separate maintainance budget. And look at the numbers … $40,000 per year x 20,000 students means their instruction costs are $800,000,000 per year. They must pay their professors a lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490/40 "2016-08-31T19:40:22Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Often times yes. The endowment is typically funded by the government or former students. Your post makes more sense when I actually read all the words. I should try that more often. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-tuition-bill-thoughts/764490.md?page=3)