# Thank God Kuwait is now free! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176 "2005-06-21T08:44:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/21 "2005-06-21T11:37:17Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > We can’t make people eat democracy until they choke on it. They have to take a bite all by themselves. And it appears that this might be the first little nibble. Or maybe not. They have the right to do whatever their hearts desire, thanks to us. And isn’t that really what democracy is about in a nutshell? The right to choose the sleazeball down the corner, the feminist radical, the religious nutjob, or the calm, rational human being is what it’s all about. I would venture to say that had we not done what we did in 1991 they would never have the opportunity. Well said. Does that mean that now America has given Iraq a “nibble” they will be leaving soon? Does America intend to spread the nibble? > [@](#): > > The right to choose the sleazeball down the corner, the feminist radical, the religious nutjob. Spread the word. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/22 "2005-06-21T11:40:43Z")
The people of Cuba have benefited mightily and rejoiced in the democracy that the US has bought them. If they wern’t dancing in the streets they may well be paddling to America. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/23 "2005-06-21T11:43:44Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > The point is that we are only exporting democracy to those places where it will directly benefit the interests of the west, while still doing business with some of the most corrupt and repressive regimes on the planet. Why? For oil of course. The problem is when these regimes collapse as they inevitably do, they will more likely than not be replaced by regimes that are not sympathetic to the west. > > If we really want ot bring democracy to the middle east, we need to encourage the lot of the normal people, not with bombs but by not doing business with their corrupt leaders. Unfortunately we all like to drive cars, so this is unlikely to happen until we move away from an oil based economy. If there’s one thing you need to take away from this debacle in Iraq, it’s that people get the government they want (or deserve). If they want a new one they can put in half as much effort as they do killing people in Iraq with suicide bombs and remedy the situation. The governments that they have are the governments they are happy with. What we see as corruption they see as normal day-to-day business. We can’t frame our arguments from our perspective and expect everybody to see it our way. The mess we have over there right now is what happens when we do that. The people in the Middle East will choose their own fate. Thay have to. We can’t do it for them. If we don’t all we’ll be doing is getting in the middle of a fight we can’t possibly win (reference Sunni/Shia, Jew/Muslim, Arab/Kurd conflicts). Now, I agree that we need to get away from oil ASAP so as to stop funding these people, and barring that we need to reduce usage, but until that happens we need them. Reality trumps wishful thinking every time. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/24 "2005-06-21T12:02:00Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The governments that they have are the governments they are happy with. What we see as corruption they see as normal day-to-day business. We can’t frame our arguments from our perspective and expect everybody to see it our way. The mess we have over there right now is what happens when we do that. The people in the Middle East will choose their own fate. Thay have to. We can’t do it for them. If we don’t all we’ll be doing is getting in the middle of a fight we can’t possibly win (reference Sunni/Shia, Jew/Muslim, Arab/Kurd conflicts). Were they rioting in the streets to get rid of Sadam? Every news report I saw had Iraqis claiming they were happy and going to win the war. Mugabe has banned journalists. The only reports are made secretly and no one seems even vaguely happy. It seems Mr Blair should be asking Mr Bush for help this time. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/25 "2005-06-21T12:07:08Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The governments that they have are the governments they are happy with. What we see as corruption they see as normal day-to-day business. We can’t frame our arguments from our perspective and expect everybody to see it our way. The mess we have over there right now is what happens when we do that. The people in the Middle East will choose their own fate. Thay have to. We can’t do it for them. If we don’t all we’ll be doing is getting in the middle of a fight we can’t possibly win (reference Sunni/Shia, Jew/Muslim, Arab/Kurd conflicts). > > Now, I agree that we need to get away from oil ASAP so as to stop funding these people, and barring that we need to reduce usage, but until that happens we need them. Reality trumps wishful thinking every time. I really can’t disagree with you there. BTW I meant “improve the lot” not “encourage the lot”, that’s what I get for not previewing. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/26 "2005-06-21T12:14:37Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > Were they rioting in the streets to get rid of Sadam? Every news report I saw had Iraqis claiming they were happy and going to win the war. > > Mugabe has banned journalists. The only reports are made secretly and no one seems even vaguely happy. > > It seems Mr Blair should be asking Mr Bush for help this time. I can see how happy they are to be rid of Saddam every time I turn on the news. Come on. Saddam might have been a scumbag, but what have we given them in return? Nothing but not-so-random bombings in the streets and daily violence. It’s easier to be afraid of the boogeyman than it is to be afraid of the other monsters in your closet once you get rid of him. Saddam was predictable. What is happening now is not. As far as Mugabe goes, it’s the same old story. Change comes from within. All that is required for change is for someone in that country to grow some stones and cap the guy. Since they aren’t willing to make the change I can only conclude that they are happy with what they have, or else they are unwilling to try to change things for themselves. It could have happened with Saddam 20 years ago. We can’t make it happen for them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/27 "2005-06-21T12:28:35Z")
> [@Sophistry and Illusion](#): > > I haven’t ever posted in the Pit, because in general I don’t like being abused and called an asshat, but we all have to be deflowered eventually, right? Fuck off, asshat. Hey, **MM**? If Cuba had oil, no doubt we’d have found a way to put up with Castro long ago, right? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/28 "2005-06-21T12:38:23Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > I can see how happy they are to be rid of Saddam every time I turn on the news. > > Come on. Saddam might have been a scumbag, but what have we given them in return? Nothing but not-so-random bombings in the streets and daily violence. It’s easier to be afraid of the boogeyman than it is to be afraid of the other monsters in your closet once you get rid of him. Saddam was predictable. What is happening now is not. That was my point. Average Joe Iraqi was safer under Sadam then he is now. Sadam was dangerous to those that dissented. Average Joe is more worried about feeding his family and being able to get to work and get his kids to school without being blown up, then he is in the machinations of the government. > [@](#): > > As far as Mugabe goes, it’s the same old story. Change comes from within. All that is required for change is for someone in that country to grow some stones and cap the guy. Since they aren’t willing to make the change I can only conclude that they are happy with what they have, or else they are unwilling to try to change things for themselves. It could have happened with Saddam 20 years ago. We can’t make it happen for them. Mugabe is actively terrorising the citizens of his country. He is making the conditions for Joe Avearge much worse then Sadam did in Iraq. You are right, it should be up to the people to make the change but considering Iraq’s people were “saved” before the govt bulldozed their houses surely Zimbabwe is worthy. It is a damn shame that war is justifiable when a) WMD are hinted at b) Oil is involved and c) People are living in an undemocratic state in an important part of the world…but not justified when people are being terrorised, by the govt, in a country that the world has nothing to gain from. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/29 "2005-06-21T12:40:13Z")
Wasn’t Cuba something to do with sugar and CocaCola? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/30 "2005-06-21T12:51:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Fuck off, asshat. > > Hey, **MM**? If Cuba had oil, no doubt we’d have found a way to put up with Castro long ago, right? Learn your history. Cuba had missiles, so we found a way to put up with Castro. If the missiles went away, Castro got to stay. And there’s the problem. The world, sadly, isn’t chock full of democrats and democratic regimes. Sure, there are more now than there were before, but they used to be plenty scarce. The United States and other countries had to swim in a pool filled with sharks as well as bluegills. Still does, as a matter of fact. If you have a simple solution for this, let me in on it. But international relations isn’t known as a field with lots of easy answers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/31 "2005-06-21T12:55:42Z")
> [@Sophistry and Illusion](#): > > More than a decade after we ‘liberated’ Kuwait, there is one female MP, and she got in through the back door, not by being elected. Will someone please explain to me why we bothered to liberate this backward-ass, medeival country? How many tens of thousands of people have died for this decision? Why should a single life be lost to ‘rescue’ a country whose values are diametrically opposed to our own, who don’t recognize equality of the genders, or any other 20th-century value, as far as I can tell? If I saw Saddam Hussein kicking Fred Phelps’s ass, I would stand back and watch, not try to stop the beating. Why is Kuwait any different? Sounds like cultural elitism to me. How dare you ascribe superior values to one culture over another? Do you think Western culture is inherently superior somehow? What about diversity and tolerance? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/32 "2005-06-21T13:06:03Z")
How do bulldozed homes and starvation sound? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/33 "2005-06-21T13:09:09Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Come on. Saddam might have been a scumbag, but what have we given them in return? Nothing but not-so-random bombings in the streets and daily violence. It’s easier to be afraid of the boogeyman than it is to be afraid of the other monsters in your closet once you get rid of him. Saddam was predictable. What is happening now is not. > \ > It could have happened with Saddam 20 years ago. We can’t make it happen for them. I agree with you, but also want to add that WE, the USA, helped Saddam to power (a fact that for some reason, Bush et al , never pointed out–I’m sure it was an oversight on Ari Fleischer’s part). So, I have to disagree with your last bit there about it could have happened 20 years ago–20 years ago or so, we were helping Saddam to power because of the Ayatollah in Iran. Saddy was our friend back in the day. As for Cuba, I don’t have a cite, but I did hear on NPR a while back that agribusiness leaders and others etc want in to Cuba’s markets–for crops, but also for Coca-cola, blue jeans etc–you know that stuff that makes up our “culture”. So, I don’t see it as “liberals” wanting to make nice with Cuba–I see it as a hard headed business opportunity–and one that would kill Casto’s regime for all time, IMO. Is it fear of pissing off the Cuban-American base in Miami that stays Bushs’ hand? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/34 "2005-06-21T13:11:28Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Learn your history. Cuba had missiles, so we found a way to put up with Castro. Learn yours. If Cuba had something we wanted and needed, Castro wouldn’t have sucked up to the Soviets in the first place. > [@](#): > > And there’s the problem. The world, sadly, isn’t chock full of democrats and democratic regimes. Sure, there are more now than there were before, but they used to be plenty scarce. Who the hell are you saying needs to learn history? A large number of the authoritarian regimes in the world, during the Cold War but now too, were supported by the US simply because they said “We’re anti-Communist, now give us the money and the weapons”. Much of the fault \*is \* ours, and we need to do more to repair the damage. But first we need to stop creating it, no? > [@](#): > > If you have a simple solution for this, let me in on it. But international relations isn’t known as a field with lots of easy answers. Not all solutions are simple or easy, and many aren’t even solutions but simple efforts. The lament that there aren’t any that don’t involve some effort or sacrifice on our part is too easy an excuse for sliding into a rationalization that we don’t need to, or shouldn’t, do anything at all. You are a prime example. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/35 "2005-06-21T13:20:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not all solutions are simple or easy, and many aren’t even solutions but simple efforts. The lament that there aren’t any that don’t involve some effort or sacrifice on our part is too easy an excuse for sliding into a rationalization that we don’t need to, or shouldn’t, do anything at all. You are a prime example. Well said! Just because the road ahead may be difficult does not mean that we should not make the attempt. Although as **Airman Doors, USAF** says once people have a democratic choice of government we have no right to object to their choice, although we can retain the right to defend ourselves if attacked by said regime. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/36 "2005-06-21T13:21:03Z")
**flodnak** : > [@](#): > > Welllll… as a general rule, unprovoked invasion of another country, as Iraq/Saddam Hussein did to Kuwait, is seen as a Bad Thing. Whch it is. Even when the United States is the one who does it. Even if the country we do it to once did the same thing to another country a decade or so ago. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/37 "2005-06-21T13:23:29Z")
Doing something doesn’t have to mean war. South Africa responded to pressure without any other kind of aggression (sanctions, sporting bans). It seems Sadam did too, unless he did rebuild his WMD and I missed the news. The sanctions hurt Iraqis because there was no end to them other then ‘get rid of Sadam’. South Africa didn’t need a war. Diamonds vs Oil? Something needs to happen when Joe Average is suffering. Iraq? Not so much. Zimbabwe? Yes. The west has screwy priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/38 "2005-06-21T13:37:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sounds like cultural elitism to me. How dare you ascribe superior values to one culture over another? Do you think Western culture is inherently superior somehow? What about diversity and tolerance? Huh? Tolerance is one thing; refusal to judge is merely weak-mindedness. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/39 "2005-06-21T13:53:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not all solutions are simple or easy, and many aren’t even solutions but simple efforts. The lament that there aren’t any that don’t involve some effort or sacrifice on our part is too easy an excuse for sliding into a rationalization that we don’t need to, or shouldn’t, do anything at all. You are a prime example. I’m not saying there aren’t answers, just that there aren’t easy ones. It’s all well and good to say we shouldn’t deal with authoritarian or totalitarian regimes, but what if the only choice was to support an autocrat to prevent a total dictator from taking over? Quite a dilemma, but one the United States faced many, many times. And while it backfired sometimes, it often proved successful. South Korea today is prosperous and free. So is Taiwan. So is, amazingly enough, Chile, a country that suffered a worse autocracy than most. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/40 "2005-06-21T14:16:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’m not saying there aren’t answers, just that there aren’t easy ones. No shit. What does that imply for our obligations? To you, nothing that you’ve been willing to share with us so far. > [@](#): > > what if the only choice was to support an autocrat to prevent a total dictator from taking over? That is usually not the case, and is irrelevant to the many, many times we have supported an autocrat (who turned into a dictator, there’s little difference) over democracies. > [@](#): > > South Korea today is prosperous and free. So is Taiwan. So is, amazingly enough, Chile, a country that suffered a worse autocracy than most. Attributable in all cases primarily to their own efforts, not ours, and with our own role not clearly being supportive of them rather than obstructive. It is not clear that North Korea ever could successfully attack South Korea after the armistice, for instance, not without China’s backing - attribute SK’s relative peace to world diplomatic efforts rather than US support of their authoritarianism. Similar story in Taiwan - a Chinese invasion has never been plausible, but it was the excuse for supporting Chiang in the name of the hall of mirrors called anti-Communism. Chile had a nice democracy started before \*we \* overthrew it, with the same excuse. They still have authoritarian rule, “amazingly enough”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176.md?page=3)