# Thank God Kuwait is now free! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176 "2005-06-21T08:44:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/41 "2005-06-21T14:26:19Z")
I expected the OP to piss off conservatives more than liberals, and this has indeed come to pass, but I really don’t see how this is a liberal/conservative issue. Consider the facts: 1. Wars always result in the death of lots of people who don’t deserve to die (as indeed the Gulf War did). 2. At the time, it was thought that Iraq would put up a tough fight (at least this is what was being publicized), and everyone I knew expected quite a lot of Coalition casualties. 3. We were doing this to defend a country which openly rejected our value system. 4. Invading/occupying other countries has hugely unpredictable consequences, and we knew this before Gulf War I. (Jonathan Kwitny’s \*Endless Enemies \* should be required reading for all. He is a patriot who argues that the US’s meddling abroad has hurt it more than helped it.) I don’t see how these are liberal/conservative issues. Why wouldn’t a conservative agree that we should use our military might judiciously, and primarily in defense of ourselves and countries who share our values? Am I naive? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/42 "2005-06-21T14:27:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Chile had a nice democracy started before \*we \* overthrew it, with the same excuse. They still have authoritarian rule, “amazingly enough”. Cite for your last, please? You should be aware that Chile is heading into runoff presidential elections at this time, and the favorite is Michelle Bachelet, a Socialist former defense minister whose father, an Air Force general, was executed by Pinochet in the 1970s. Freedom House certifies Chile as a free country. In what way are they _currently_ authoritarian? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/43 "2005-06-21T15:10:52Z")
In what way are you \*currently \* going to address the subject matter? Or continue to support your self-serving bullshit any more? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/44 "2005-06-21T15:15:11Z")
Listen, you don’t need to get mad at me just because you happened to be wrong about a particular fact. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/45 "2005-06-21T16:13:38Z")
We can only hope that the Chilean people are appropriately grateful for all the America has done to them. For them. Grateful for all that America has done _for_ them. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/46 "2005-06-21T16:19:04Z")
AFAICT, anyone who claims our liberation of Kuwait was only about oil is an idiot. Anyone who claims it had nothing to do with oil is as much an idiot. Saddam thought he had a good shot at seizing some of the best port facilities in the ME. Had he accomplished the invasion he would have benefitted immensely–Iraq would have become a major player in the MENA, in OPEC, and in the world, and would have substantially tipped the balance of power with Iran, as well as posing a powerful economic and military threat to Israel. President Bush felt that possibility was too great to risk. So when the Kuwaitis asked for aid, he decided it would be in the best interests of the ME, our allies, the cause of democracy, and the US as a whole to provide that aid and eject Iraq. Of _course_ it was about oil. And a whole bunch of other things. But not once was it about securing democracy or civil rights for Kuwaitis. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/47 "2005-06-21T16:40:03Z")
The regional power politics and all the rest of that would have meant nothing to us if not for, yes, oil. It isn’t widely remembered, but the initial US reaction to Saddam’s invasion was accommodation - IIRC Powell commented about there being “a new sign on the gas station”. Bush 1 only decided on war after Margaret Thatcher goaded him into it, in the name of preventing Saddam from taking the Saudi oil fields too and getting too much market share. **Mr. Moto** , it would seem you’re out of both arguments and honesty. But, if you still want to be entertaining, please enlighten us as to the US’s contributions \*toward \* establishing democracy in Chile. How is anything good there happening because of us, not in spite of us? Where are the causality relationships that have convinced you to be so proud of our government’s conduct there? Or anywhere else you’ve pointed to, for that matter? But “don’t get mad at me because you happen to be wrong” about, not a “particular fact”, but your entire position. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/48 "2005-06-21T16:46:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It isn’t widely remembered, but the initial US reaction to Saddam’s invasion was accommodation - IIRC Powell commented about there being “a new sign on the gas station”. With respect, I’d like to see cites for both of those assertions, if you don’t mind. > [@](#): > > Bush 1 only decided on war after Margaret Thatcher goaded him into it, in the name of preventing Saddam from taking the Saudi oil fields too and getting too much market share. And for that as well. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/49 "2005-06-21T16:53:49Z")
That was from my own memory, but [this interview with Thatcher](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/thatcher/1.html) covers both statements. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/50 "2005-06-21T16:56:13Z")
[James Baker](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/baker/5.html) denies the “gas station” view, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/51 "2005-06-21T16:58:09Z")
But [this site](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2003/0105lies.htm) says it was the prevailing opinion at the National Security Council, according to “one participant”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/52 "2005-06-21T17:05:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That was from my own memory, but [this interview with Thatcher](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/thatcher/1.html) covers both statements. Well, it doesn’t demonstrate that the first US reaction was accomodation, nor that the president had to be “goaded” by Mrs. T into the war. on preview: > [@](#): > > But this site says it was the prevailing opinion at the National Security Council, according to “one participant”. Perhaps it was so. But discussion and advice is a long way from an “initial US reaction,” I think. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/53 "2005-06-21T17:25:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We can only hope that the Chilean people are appropriately grateful for all the America has done to them. For them. Grateful for all that America has done _for_ them. I was there a few years ago, and was treated very well indeed. We were down for joint naval exercises, and I wound up riding one of their frigates for more than a week, the Almirante Lynch. I made some friends with some of the chief petty officers on the crew, and one of them had another American sailor and me to his house for dinner. We didn’t discuss politics. I was much more concerned with getting as much of that excellent Chilean cabernet into the hold of our American flagship as I could. If you ever get a chance to go, grab it. The Four Aces were playing the casino at Vina del Mar, and pertty girls were all over the beach. It was a swinging time. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/54 "2005-06-22T09:56:20Z")
At least Kuwait gave women the vote (last month). Do you actually think it’s about democracy? Iran is democracy, where women get the vote…no argument from me that it’s run by lunatics, but at least they’re ELECTED lunatics. Unlike say…Saudi Arabia, which is run by a corrupt monarchy, and where women are unable to vote. Guess which one is an American ally. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/55 "2005-06-22T10:02:33Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Iran is democracy, where women get the vote…no argument from me that it’s run by lunatics, but at least they’re ELECTED lunatics. I’m not sure the elected people in Iran have much power. But Iran was our ally when it was ruled by a corrupt and oppressive dictator who was installed by the US. Woo-hoo! Who’s for some good old-fashioned American values? ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/56 "2005-06-22T10:12:51Z")
> [@Sophistry and Illusion](#): > > Anyone who \*really, honestly \* thinks that it is permissible to go to war to lower the price of oil by a few dollars a barrel is the asshat worn by an asshat. I never said I thought it was a justifiable reason to go to war. I just said that I thought that was a possible reason. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/57 "2005-06-22T10:15:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Learn yours. If Cuba had something we wanted and needed, Castro wouldn’t have sucked up to the Soviets in the first place. I don’t suppose that little dalliance with Marxism had anything to do with one man looking to spread his dictatorial rule over the rest by siding with a regime that he modeled his country after? In a time when it was still uncertain whom would come out on top? Remember, Reagan wasn’t in office yet. Nuclear missles 90 miles from Miami wasn’t enough to cause us to just blow the shit out of the island. You honestly think a little oil would have changed anything? I know you like to stick to the tired old “Oil is why America kills people”. But this is tired. Do you really (no, really) beleive it? ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/58 "2005-06-22T10:17:45Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I never said I thought it was a justifiable reason to go to war. I just said that I thought that was a possible reason. No, it was clear from your post that you weren’t endorsing this position. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/59 "2005-06-22T10:18:29Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Iran is democracy, where women get the vote…no argument from me that it’s run by lunatics, but at least they’re ELECTED lunatics. Those up for election must be approved by the mullahs. Loses something in translation, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176/60 "2005-06-22T10:41:37Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > And this is somehow America’s fault? We should have let the rapes continue. Why bother defending the ones that had no defense? > > I hope you immediately stand up and say to the women in Kuwait, “I wish you were all raped again! I don’t give a shit that you were invaded by this guy that some here still defend!” > > You fuckers make me sick. I don’t even care if it’s in half-jest. And seeing some of you, I suspect it isn’t. Win me over by convincing me how the invasion back then was acceptable. And the usual straw man crap from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-god-kuwait-is-now-free/309176.md?page=4)