# Thank you, Canada **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505 "2006-09-21T01:55:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/41 "2007-01-08T05:45:01Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] I know you meant that as a joke, but in one of the articles I read, a US official used exactly that logic. He said that one of the criteria for being on the watch list is having been previously removed from the U.S. by U.S. immigration officials. Since Mr. Arar was removed, he meets that criterion and stays on the list. And you thought Kafka made that stuff up… [/QUOTE] Actually, sounds more like Joseph Heller to me. Someday, our grandkids will find old news reports about how the War on Terror was conducted and think they’re brilliant satire. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/42 "2007-01-08T06:15:35Z")
Besides which, the government of the USA is on record that it does not participate in torture, therefore Arar is an enemy of the USA in claiming that he was stolen away by the USA and sent to another country to be tortured on behalf of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/43 "2007-01-08T06:18:09Z")
This whole rendition thing is an excellent exemple of why the International Criminal Court should be bolstered. I would love to see Bush Co. brought to justice. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/44 "2007-01-19T05:04:34Z")
An interesting development today: Attorney General Gonzales appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee and the chair, Senator Leahy, ripped into him over the Arar affair: [U.S. ‘knew damn well’ Arar would be tortured](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/18/arar-us.html#skip300x250). Key passage of Senator Leahy’s comments: > [@Leahy to Gonzales](#): > > Leahy said that when Arar — a citizen of both Canada and Syria travelling on a Canadian passport — was detained in 2002, American authorities knew he would be tortured if they deported him to Syria. > > “We knew damn well if he went to Canada he wouldn’t be tortured,” said Leahy, a Democrat from Vermont. “He’d be held and he’d be investigated.” > > “We also knew damn well if he went to Syria, he’d be tortured. **And it’s beneath the dignity of this country — a country that has always been a beacon of human rights — to send somebody to another country to be tortured.** ” > … > Leahy noted that U.S. officials claimed to have had assurances that people sent to Syria would not be tortured. > > “Assurances,” he snorted, “from a country that we also say now that we can’t talk to them because we can’t take their word for anything.” Thank you, Senator Leahy, for re-affirming the best values of the American tradition. For an edited transcript of the exchange, go here: [Transcript of Leahy-Gonzales exchange on Arar](http://www.thestar.com/News/article/172671). The Attorney General is now promising to release more info on the case to the Senate committee, which is threatening to hold hearings into the matter if they’re not satisfied: [U.S. to release more information on Arar case](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070118.warar0118/BNStory/National/home). And following up on the negotiations last month between Canada’s Foreign Minister and Secretary of State Rice, U.S. authorities have shared their Arar file with their Canadian counterparts, which the American officials say has other information that justifies keeping Mr. Arar on the U.S. watchlist. The Canadian Public Safety Minister has stated that Canadian officials don’t see anything in the U.S. file that warrants keeping Mr. Arar on the list. > [@Stockwell Day](#): > > The secret U.S. dossier on Mahar Arar doesn’t contain anything new nor any evidence that fingers him as a terrorist suspect, Mr. Day said Thursday after failing to persuade U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff to remove the Canadian from American watch lists. > > "He should not be on a watch list,‘’ Mr. Day told a news conference in Washington, adding that Canadian counter-terrorism officials had been shown the U.S. dossier and found "nothing new’’ in it. > > "We have seen some recent information that has not altered our opinion at all,‘’ he said. So, some progress down south in the Senate, but the Executive branch doesn’t seem willing to admit a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/45 "2007-01-19T13:49:48Z")
Thanks, Northern Piper, for keeping us up to date. I don’t hear much about the case. I’m going to start looking for stories like these. The executive branch is quickly becoming somewhat less intimidating than they (he) once was. The last election rocked their world. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/46 "2007-01-19T13:59:56Z")
I heard Senator Leahy’s comments (yelling) on the CBC radio news yesterday and teared up a little. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/47 "2007-01-19T14:41:41Z")
You’re welcome, **mangeorge**. the media up here are following the story closely, so it’s easier for us to keep advised about it. but if Senator Leahy keeps the pressure on the Administration about it, will you see more of it in the US media? and to get the full flavour of the exchange, you really need to hear an audio clip, as **Ginger** says. The good Senator was mad, and pretty much yelling at the Attorney General, who just sat there with a Bush-like smirk on his face. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/48 "2007-01-19T14:54:20Z")
Obviously Senator Leahy hates America. :rolleyes: Syria has always been one of America’s closest allies in the fight against terrorism. 😕 Syrian torturers know how to get the truth out of people. 🆒 Those wimps in Canada actually give suspects some rights, so they are no use. :smack: Thank God for people like Attorney General Gonzales. Without men like him, the terrorists have won - and evolution would be taught in schools all over the US. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/49 "2007-01-25T04:20:30Z")
Well, the Homeland Security folks have completed their review, and have decided that Mr. Arar stays on the US watch list: [Arar to stay on watchlist, U.S. says](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070123.ARAR23/TPStory/National). They are repeating that they have information from someone other than the Mounties that justifies keeping Mr. Arar on the list. The letter is dated two days before the meeting with Canada’s Minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day. After that meeting, Mr. Day said that the Americans have shared their file with his officials, and they don’t see anything new in it that would justify keeping Mr. Arar on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/50 "2007-01-25T04:28:57Z")
And in other news: [US Ambassador to Canada: Bugger off, already!](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0408e0a2-fa3e-42d4-ae34-468dfe30d718&k=77642). Okay, so Ambassador Wilkins didn’t use precisely that term, but that’s the gist of it: he’s getting outraged that Canada would keep bothering the U.S. about the way the U.S. treats a Canadian citizen. That’s a matter of US national security, and Canada should just accept that it doesn’t have any right to squawk about US treatment of a Canadian citizen. Somehow, if Canada arranged for a US citizen to be sent to Syria for torture, I think the US would be asking us some questions - and well they should. Every nation has an interest in the way other nations treat its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/51 "2007-01-25T04:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] And in other news: [US Ambassador to Canada: Bugger off, already!](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0408e0a2-fa3e-42d4-ae34-468dfe30d718&k=77642). [/QUOTE] I’d love to comment about Wilkins in general, but I feel unduly restrained outside of the Pit. That guy going into diplomacy is like Michael J. Fox having a stab at microsurgery. He makes Paul Celluci look like Gordon Giffin. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/52 "2007-01-26T15:03:09Z")
Recap: Canada advises USA to put Arar on terrorist watch list. USA sends Arar to Syria for a year to be tortured. Canada learns that it gave false information to USA. Canada holds a major investigation into the matter headed by an Ontario Associate Chief Justice, which entirely clears Arar. Canada’s federal House of Commons unanimously apologizes. Head of Royal Canadian Mounted Police apologizes, and later resigns. Canada’s Attorney General meets with USA counterpart to review USA information on Arar, finds no new information, and asks for Arar to be removed from terrorist watch list. USA refuses to remove Arar form terrorist watch list – its Ambassador Wilkins calling Canada presumptuous. Canadian Prime Minister apologizes. Canada awards $10,000,000.00 to Arar, plus legal fees. * * * Dear Ambassador Wilkins: As a Canadian, I must apologize for my government being so “presumptious” as to ask that an innocent man, whom our governments caused to be tortured, be removed from your suspected terrorist list after having been entirely cleared by an extensive Parliamentary investigation. Yours in the promotion of torture, Muffin ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/53 "2007-01-26T15:44:39Z")
There is an editorial in today’s (26 Jan 2007) Toronto Star, titled “Arar’s corrosive effect”, which boils down to, “Why should Canada share information with the US if they aren’t going to listen to us?”: > [@](#): > > The Arar case is corrosive to bilateral relations because it typifies Washington’s high-handed approach to border security, terror watch lists and “no-fly” lists. > > The Americans seem to be saying they will ban whomever they like and they won’t give reasons, and that they will deport people to be tortured if that’s what they feel like doing. Simultaneoulsly, they seem to be saying that Canada must share every bit of information it has about everyone who proposes to cross the border. > > Well, Canada doesn’t have to hand over our information if the U.S. doesn’t take our concerns seriously. Even yesterday’s National Post (as great a supporter of conservative and right-wing policies as we have) had its lead headline yesterday, “Arar rift with US widens”. From The Globe and Mail: [Ottawa settles with Arar over compensation](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070126.warar26/BNStory/National/home): > [@](#): > > Maher Arar, the Canadian engineer who was illegally sent to Syria to be tortured after the RCMP wrongly labelled him an Islamic extremist, will be given a compensation package Friday amounting to more than $10-million, government sources told The Globe and Mail… > > …the consequences of Canada’s culpability loom large. > > For example, a deep diplomatic rift remains with the United States, which refuses to accept Mr. Arar’s innocence. **U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins took Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day to task this week** for insisting that Mr. Arar’s name did not belong on Washington’s security watch list. > > In addition, Giuliano Zaccardelli became the first RCMP commissioner to resign over scandal in the history of the federal police force after inadequacies were highlighted in the way the case was handled. His force spent $863,000 investigating Mr. Arar before wrongly concluding he was an extremist. (bolding mine) As I’ve said before, no-one came out of this looking good except Mr. Arar, but at least the Canadian authorities were man enough to admit their mistakes. The US authorities seem to be intent on driving away another ally. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/54 "2007-01-26T17:10:01Z")
I don’t supose we could start placing Bush Co. and their supporters on our watch list and then feed it to the USA in the spirit of cooperation in the War Against Terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/55 "2007-01-26T18:44:24Z")
I started a GD thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8193028) (and crossposted the editorial **Sunspace** posted above). I’m particularly interested in how this case is playing in America. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/56 "2007-01-27T02:46:22Z")
We tend not to hear too much about it in the news down here. Mind you, I keep the radio in the car on CBC (Sirius) most of the time, so I may not be the best person to comment. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/57 "2007-01-27T02:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth] We tend not to hear too much about it in the news down here. Mind you, I keep the radio in the car on CBC (Sirius) most of the time, so I may not be the best person to comment. [/QUOTE] Yes, Sirius rocks because it carries the CBC, even Radio 3. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/58 "2007-01-27T03:06:22Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] Yes, Sirius rocks because it carries the CBC, even Radio 3. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Yeah, but it also carries _that_ guy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/59 "2007-01-27T03:31:35Z")
[QUOTE=mangeorge] Yeah, but it also carries _that_ guy. 😉 [/QUOTE] Three channels of CBC outwieghs one channel of _him_. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/60 "2007-01-27T03:47:32Z")
😕 I seek enlightenment - who is the guy-who-is-not-to-be-named? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505.md?page=4)