# Thank you, Canada **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505 "2006-09-21T01:55:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/61 "2007-01-27T03:49:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] Three channels of CBC outwieghs one channel of _him_. [/QUOTE] I hope so. I don’t have satellite radio. Not yet anyway. I may get XM so I can listen to _Dylan’s_ “Theme Time Radio Hour”. And some other stuff. Like CBC or the like. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/62 "2007-01-27T04:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] 😕 I seek enlightenment - who is the guy-who-is-not-to-be-named? 😕 [/QUOTE] Howard Stern. I know you’ve heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/63 "2007-01-27T04:57:19Z")
I figure it’s somewhat acceptable for the U.S. to have Arar on their no-fly list. The reason being the U.S. sent him off to Syria where he was tortured, so Homeland Security figures he _might_ bear a grudge. It’s the same reason people are held in Guantanamo for a very long time. _We can’t let them out. If they weren’t terrorists before, they’re going to be as soon as we let them go!_ ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/64 "2007-01-27T05:22:52Z")
It’s almost as if some force within the US regime _wants_ mayhem, _wants_ peace processes and the push towards democratic world affairs to break down, _wants_ to breed terrorists… ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/65 "2007-01-27T07:03:37Z")
How can you have a War On Terror without terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/66 "2007-01-27T12:28:57Z")
An editorial by Thomas Walkom in the Toronto Star, entitled [U.S. security trumps freedom](http://www.thestar.com/News/article/175534): > [@](#): > > The U.S. has chosen to subordinate the principles of individual freedom to what it sees as its security needs. It jails people indefinitely without charge, utilizes interrogation methods that the United Nations describes as torture, wages illegal wars and commits the very crimes against humanity it once helped to prosecute. > > For America’s friends, this is heartbreaking to watch. I want the old United States back, the one that brought hope to the world and at least _tried_ to live up to its ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/67 "2007-01-27T13:13:13Z")
Bad stuff has often gone on, so to some degree what we thought of as the good USA is really just a myth that we bought into. Then again, compare Ike to Shrub – a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/68 "2007-01-29T03:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Bad stuff has often gone on, so to some degree what we thought of as the good USA is really just a myth that we bought into. [/QUOTE] I know that; I know about the United Fruit Company and Hearst’s ‘yellow journalism’ and the death squads in Central America and so on… but I also know that the USA has a built-in moral compass in the form of its constitution. There are countries run by cliques who are just out for themselves, and who are unashamed to admit it. There are countries whose founding laws speak of bright futures for all, but who ignore those words in favour of ‘business as usual’. There are countries where the beast of tyranny is constrained by centuries of tradition and the slow growth of the rule of law. And then there’s the United States of America, a country where some of the brightest minds of the eighteenth century tried to openly and explicitly build liberty and fairness and opportunity for all into the very bones of their nation. Where, in spite of all the forces against them, in spite of the greedy and the slavers and the bigots, enough of the people were schooled in democracy and self-reliance and respect for others, that the dream of liberty and hope remained alive. Nations all over the world were inspired by it. And always, always, it provided a goal for those who would better the United States itself. If the United States slips into tyranny, the effect will be far worse than if an equal number of people in other countries do. If the people of the United States openly choose tyranny, or by inaction allow it to prevail, they will deal a blow to the morale of the world, to the psyches of fighters for freedom and justice, that will be hard to recover from. And the physical power of the United States will give that tyranny wings of steel and fire to overshadow the whole world. What goes on in the USA affects us all. And most of us can only stand and watch. And hope for the best. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/69 "2007-02-02T03:14:57Z")
[U.S. senators briefed on Arar: Democrat, Republican closed-mouthed after meeting, but say they have a lot more questions](http://www.thestar.com/News/article/177347) Media coverage continues. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/70 "2007-02-02T04:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=mangeorge] > [@Northern Piper](#): > > 😕 I seek enlightenment - who is the guy-who-is-not-to-be-named? 😕 Howard Stern. I know you’ve heard of him. [/QUOTE] Ah - heard of him, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard him. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/71 "2007-05-13T00:45:49Z")
Mr. Arar makes the [Time 100](http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/time100/article/0,28804,1595326_1615754_1616006,00.html) of most influential people in the world. A bit over-the-top, I think, in terms of his personal influence, but if you consider him as a representative example of the practice of extraordinary rendition by the the CIA, it makes some sense. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/72 "2007-05-13T14:57:10Z")
I’ve written letters to officials asking for some action from our govt. on Mr. Arar’s mistreatment but, with the exception of **Patrick Leahy** , there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest. The Bush administration is still in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/73 "2007-05-13T22:03:22Z")
It does indicate just what “values” are being promoted by Bush Co. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/74 "2007-08-10T06:03:51Z")
Well, some more info came out today, and it doesn’t make the RCMP, CSIS, FBI or CIA look very good. The Government of Canada witheld certain portions of Justice O’Connor’s report last year, citing national security. Today, a Federal Court judge rejected that argument and ordered the redacted portions be made public: [Declassified sections of Arar report cast blame on CSIS](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=ce3174a4-7db0-4301-9a79-fa000abda939&k=51436). CSIS officials appear to have known that American authorities were engaged in rendition of suspects to countries that would torture them. > [@](#): > > Canadian security officials suspected that Maher Arar would be questioned “in a firm manner” when the Americans deported the Ottawa engineer to his birth country of Syria, newly declassified portions of an investigative report into the incident revealed Thursday. > > **“I think the U.S. would like to get Arar to Jordan where they can have their way with him,”** Jack Hooper, assistant director of operations for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, wrote in a memo described in newly disclosed passages of the Arar report. > [@](#): > > The newly uncensored passages also reveal that the CSIS security liaison officer in Washington, in a memo to his superiors two days after Arar’s deportation, “spoke of **a trend they had noted lately when the CIA or FBI cannot legally hold a terrorist suspect, or wish a target questioned in a firm manner, they have them rendered to countries willing to fulfil that role.”** Arar, he said, was “a case in point.” In another portion of the redacted section, Judge O’Connor noted that the RCMP obtained a warrant in this case without revealing to the judge that the information came from a country that engaged in torture: > [@](#): > > The new version also places more blame on the Mounties, revealing that an RCMP anti-terrorism squad, in seeking search warrants in early 2002, failed to reveal to the presiding judge that the information came from an unnamed country with a poor human rights record or that it may have been obtained through torture. > > In September 2002, the Mounties also kept a judge in the dark while seeking a warrant to wiretap Arar’s phone, failing to mention that their information came from an uncorroborated confession by terror suspect Ahmad El Maati, which was likely obtained under torture in Syria. No-one’s looking good, but the portions revealed today help indicate why the US authorities even today are refusing to comment on the case: Mr. Arar appears to have been just one example of their rendition policy. These portions also respond to questions raised in the earlier GD thread, where some posters questioned the grounds for assuming that the US authorities had consciously shipped Mr. Arar to Syria to be tortured: [Ottawa reaches $10 million compensation deal with Canadian sent abroad to be tortured](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8193028). A few other articles: [CSIS suspected Arar would be deported](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070809/arar_details_070809/20070809?hub=CTVNewsAt11) [CSIS suspected Arar torture](http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/244696) ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/75 "2007-08-10T14:20:01Z")
How does that make CSIS look bad, though? Once Arar was in American custody there wasn’t much that we could do for him, was there? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/76 "2007-08-10T23:28:11Z")
One of the criticisms levelled at CSIS and the Foreign Affairs Department is that they did not try hard enough to get Mr. Arar back. The diplomats apparently did not think that Mr. Arar was being tortured in Syria. After all, when they conducted a consular visit to the Syrian jail, Mr Arar didn’t tell them. (The presence of Syrian jailers in the visiting room couldn’t have had anything to do with that… :smack: ) If CSIS knew right from the get-go that Mr. Arar was likely to be tortured, why didn’t they tell Foreign Affairs their concerns? Subsequently, the official line from the Mounties and CSIS was that they didn’t have any reason to believe that Mr. Arar would be tortured, so they didn’t see any reason to pressure Foreign Affairs to take action. So either they didn’t read their own guy’s report, or they didn’t believe their own guy’s report, or they were, … um, parsimonious with the truth… ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/77 "2007-08-11T00:03:56Z")
Torture isn’t the only issue here, imo. The Americans grabbed a tourist, a Canadina citizen, who was traveling legally under his own name and who possesed a valid passport and was returning to his home country, put a bag over his head, then spirited (kidnapped) him off to a foreign country. Imagine being in his shoes. If anything, and if there was any real cause for concern about Mr. Arar’s intentions, he should have been held in a proper jail while Canada was contacted so the situation could be worked out. His family should have been contacted and allowed to visit. He should have, asap, been turned over to the _proper_ authorities (Canada) for them to deal with. I’m disappointed in the apparent lack of caring of the American people in this matter. Shame on us. Again, BOO! Thanks again, **Piper** , for keepig us up-to-date on Mr. Arar’s ordeal. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/78 "2007-08-11T20:14:30Z")
You’re welcome. Since this thread is approaching it’s first birthday, I’ve asked **CK Dexter Haven** in the ATMB thread re zombies whether it’s okay to keep bringing it back. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/79 "2007-08-11T20:49:56Z")
I hope it’s okay. I’ve linked to this thread for **Barbara Lee** , Democratic Congresswoman for the 9th District in California. I just sent it yesterday. I’ll see if she, or her minions, get back to me. She has on other matters. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505/80 "2007-08-11T22:55:43Z")
Allow me to translate **Gonspeak** : > [@](#): > > We were not responsible for his removal to Syria. By ‘we’ he mean the Justice Dept. The renditions are handled by the CIA. > [@](#): > > I’m not aware that he was tortured. I’m not aware that being beaten with a cable constitutes torture under the revised interrogation guidelines, which I can’t discuss with you in any case because the guidelines are classified. > [@](#): > > I haven’t read the commission report. I don’t read anything the president doesn’t tell me to read, lest I learn something that I shouldn’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-canada/373505.md?page=5)