# Thank you Christians, from an Israeli Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113 "2002-09-29T16:47:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/21 "2002-09-30T05:49:15Z")
akohl - “I just thought I would take advantage of my mood to share with all of you my appreciation for the friendship that is extended to us from people all over the world. At a time when so many raise a threatening hand against us this friendship must not be taken for granted.” Amen I’ve read this thread a few times now and don’t see where akohl instigated the attack some of you seem compelled to start. Maybe I missed the part where akohl actually mentioned Palestine. I did get the part about people dying due to hatred. I’m pretty sure this does happen quite a bit. Sure, you can infer more if you like. But taking someone’s THANKYOU and twisting it out of context as an opportunity to “enlighten” the rest of us on your supreme intellect and “psychic” ability to know what akohl really meant…hmmm I believe the comment, “But then again, maybe their religion has uplifted them morally to the point that they can tell the difference between wanton slaughter and self defence” was in response to someone else’s opinion. Anyway, akohl…I don’t know about the politicians and governments and etc. but WE people need to find a way to get along. Maybe politics is a dinosaur that needs to be put down. I can’t speak for the “Christians” that have felt the need to ostricize you here but as far as I’m concerned, you’re welcome and you needn’t worry about whether they speak for the masses. I assure you, they do NOT. Take care and Peace ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/22 "2002-09-30T06:09:46Z")
—I just know that some Christians are friends of Israel and that my impression is that this friendship is very profound.— Sure. Since they know that you will soon give up your silly faith and/or be slaughtered en masse in the glorious end to come… it’s all good, right? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/23 "2002-09-30T07:01:21Z")
Maybe you should read the thread again **t-keela** , there was no “attacking” going on until the “wanton slaughter and self defence” comment, which I think let everyone know **akohl** ’s stance in this matter. Btw, I do not consider myself a Christian and my “attack” was a facetious reminder that Jews and Christians will help each other out all the time if it suits their worldly(or end-of-wordly) needs. “Maybe I missed the part where akohl actually mentioned Palestine.”- thats kinda the point. Christian Palestinians can get wiped out as long as a shining Israeli state is sitting ready for the Apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/24 "2002-09-30T12:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > akohl > How can Jews and Christians, and others who feel that we have values in common work to better understand the nature of the bonds of friendship between us and how can we continue to pursue and widen our common agenda? Perhaps invite some Muslims along and try to work out a solution based on mutual common ground. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/25 "2002-09-30T12:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > Please explain to me why it’s bad for Christians to support Israel for religious reasons. “Religious” reasons don’t immunize one from criticism for one’s actions and motives. The motives in this case are selfish, shallow, and not motivated by any love for Jews or Palestinians. They are, therefore, entirely worthy of condemnation. > [@](#): > > Anyway, no matter how much you guys rail and whine against Israel, they are a) our only faithful ally in that part of the world, Yes. That’s one of many reasons why I support Israel. > [@](#): > > b) under attack by a group of people with no sense of morality or perspective. Horseshit. Even **akohl** has (belatedly) conceded that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel. And yet you launch into a blanket condemnation of them as lacking all morality and perspective. They’re people, Joe. There’s a lot of assholes among 'em, and Israel’s own behavior has undoubtedly contributed to the assholes gaining the upper hand. But that sort of rhetoric is sheer nonsense, and you should be ashamed for using it. How very Christian of you. > [@](#): > > Israel is attacked on an almost daily basis with firebombs, guns, explosives, etc and we tell them “suck it up. It’s not politically expedient for you to defend yourselves.” Strawman. Only the manner of defense is seriously debated, not the right to defense itself. > [@](#): > > If it were up to me, Israel would lay utter waste to all the hostile nations around them and be done with it once and for all. Praise Jesus! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/26 "2002-09-30T13:00:49Z")
**akohl** - You’re welcome (if that is appropriate), and peace be with you, and on all the children of Israel. To the rest of the board - I cannot, for the life of me, see why it is your business to pass judgement on who is or is not worthy of extending friendship to Israel. Shouldn’t that be up to the people of Israel to decide? You seem to be very concerned that it is patronizing for Christians to reach out to Israel. How patronizing is it to say, in essence, the Jews are too stupid to know who their friends are? Or should be? And as long as we are questioning each others’ motives, I will say that I hope all this is based on concern for Israel’s well being - and **not** on the desire that she have no friends at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/27 "2002-09-30T13:06:43Z")
Apos wrote: > [@](#): > > Sure. Since they know that you will soon give up your silly faith and/or be slaughtered en masse in the glorious end to come… it’s all good, right? Other than banal ignorance, why do you say that? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/28 "2002-09-30T13:30:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > Well it strikes me that if 10,000 “non-Jews” attended a function to show Christian solidarity with Jews in Jerusalem, that Palistinian ethnicity can be assumed in large part among the participants. Indeed is not the Jerusalem contingent of this denomination Palistinian ? As usual Greeny, your assumptions do not logically follow from the facts. Nothing in the statement indicates a “Jerusalem congregation” was involved, the group itself is foreign. Palestinian Xtians are not going to support en masse or in part a self-described Christian Zionist organization. Politically, Palestinian Christians are as opposed to Israeli occupation as Palestinian Muslims. The PLO and PA are not Muslim organizations, they began and remain secular with significant participation from the Palestinian Xtian community. Indeed, I know one of the ex-treasurers, a Palestinian Catholic. Hanan Ashraoui is a Xtian, as another example. You may peruse this article for perspective: [http://www.mcjonline.com/news/01a/20010216c.shtml](http://www.mcjonline.com/news/01a/20010216c.shtml) while the BBC article [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/1727060.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1727060.stm) here also offers perspective. As most Palestinian Xtians (a) are not protestants and (b) those that are largely not of the bizarro world American fundie extraction, support of a Xtian Zionist organization which sees Israel as Biblical fulfillment, above all as Xtians have historically been serious property owners and suffer from Israeli expropriations. Indeed, as a matter of personal anectdote, I have never met a Palestinian Xtian that did not bitterly bemoan the creation of Israel and the percieved losses of their (P Xtian) community. Never. Edward Said rather better encapsules how they feel. You are aware Ed Said, literary bete noire of Israel, is a Xtian are you not. Not all the dirty little sand nigs, how did our own ever-so-well-informed Joe Cool put it, “a group of people with no sense of morality or perspective” are Muslims see. No sense of morality or perspective. Animals in other words. A goodly number are Xtian, esp. the overseas Palestinians. They have an easier time getting visas. > [@](#): > > Other than the simple Christian /Jew dichotomy what other dichotomies are you refering to **Collounsbury**? That would be the main one. The simple idea that Xtians support Jews. Or hate Jews. Or whatever. (I note that historically, the bitterest opposition to Jewish European immigration in the late 19th century came from the Christian community, whose newspaper, _Philistine_ [Palestine] was violently opposed to such immigration. Not Muslims, Xtians. Reduction of what is in the end a _political_ argument into an eschatological, apocalyptic religious question is an utterly bad idea. It strikes me that anyone with more than a few neurons to rub together who bothers to reflect on this idiotic posturing can see that covering up secular political argument over land in yet more religious obfuscation only gets further in the way of a rational settlement to the problems. That Shodany old boy is why it is someone’s business to judge the reason and content of “support” - because irrational religious support with apocalyptic overtones for a policy is the recipe for disaster, in a region which ain’t easy to work in. That and ignorance, e.g. by folks making comments w/o historical grounding (as you recently did) gets one’s head up one’s ass. Of course, akohl, who believes in the settler project and the greater Israel rhetoric of Judea and Samaria, loves the idea of some folks who will blindly support such – sure they actually only want to end of the World and the miraculous conversion of the Jews as brought about by rebuilding the Temple but what the fuck, why let a little millenariun insanity get in the way? I wanted to add my support for Twist’s observation in re inviting along Muslims. The silence, the phrasings here, everything says that akohl, Joey boy, etc see this as a religious dichotomy, of Xtian and Jew against Muslims. The Salafistes, aka the Islamists, the Islamist Fundamentalists have that very same vision. Welcome to Bin Laden thinking, what a brilliant idea to adopt it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/29 "2002-09-30T14:11:46Z")
Collounsbury wrote: > [@](#): > > You are aware Ed Said, literary bete noire of Israel, is a Xtian are you not. Have you told him that? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/30 "2002-09-30T14:20:34Z")
Edward Said is a member of the Anglican Church. Most Palestinian Christians belong to the Greek Orthodox Church. Some are Catholics, I think, but only a very few are Protestants like Said. I wonder what America’s right-wing super-Christians have to say about the plight of the Palestinian Christians (who are in the same boat as the Palestinian Muslims). If they’re of the Jack Chick variety, they probably dismiss the Palestinian Christians as deluded by Satan, since they’re Greek Orthodox, not fundie Protestants, so the hell with them. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/31 "2002-09-30T14:26:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Grienspace:_ > \*\*Well it strikes me that if 10,000 “non-Jews” attended a function to show Christian solidarity with Jews in Jerusalem, that Palistinian ethnicity can be assumed in large part among the participants. Indeed is not the Jerusalem contingent of this denomination Palistinian ? \*\*Um, the ICEJ isn’t a “denomination” as such. It’s just an interdenominational conglomeration (would the term “ad hoc” be correct?) with no particular theological agenda other than the restoration of Israel as a nation so that Jesus can come again. From [About Us:](http://www.icej.org/pages/home/aboutus.html) > [@](#): > > In 1980, Christian supporters of Israel established the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem as a practical expression of the desire of believers throughout the world to bless and comfort Zion. > > The Embassy opened after the international community condemned Israel for declaring united Jerusalem the “eternal and indivisible capital” of the reborn Jewish state. As 13 nations moved their embassies from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv due to a threatened Arab oil embargo, 1400 Christians from 40 countries decided to open their own Embassy in Jerusalem. > > It was an act of solidarity with the Jewish people’s 3000-year-old connection to their holy city. > > Today, Christians everywhere have an Embassy representing them in Jerusalem, an effective channel for their concern and love for Israel. So, no, I don’t see any reason to assume that any part of those 10,000 spectators would have been either Palestinian Christians or Palestinian Moslems, other than perhaps a tiny percentage who came out of simple curiosity. But the event was almost certainly billed as exactly what it is–a specifically Christian, Jewish, and Israeli love-in. If I had been a Palestinian looking for something to do that evening, I wouldn’t have gone within a mile of the place, free ticket or not (see following). I’d sure like to see a cite for the OP’s “10,000 non-Jews” attendance figure. My understanding of the Covenant pageant is that it was held as part of their [September 2002 Christian Celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles](http://www.icej.org/pages/events/feast/feast2002/index.html) in Jerusalem, and if the performance that the OP is referring to was the one that took place on [September 26,](http://www.icej.org/pages/events/feast/feast2002/the_covenant.html) then it was held in the International Convention Center of Jerusalem. > [@](#): > > And now, because of the tremendous response from both Christian and Jewish audiences, The Covenant will be featured at the upcoming Feast of Tabernacles Celebration, to be staged at the International Convention Center, Jerusalem’s largest performance hall. > > \< snip \> > > Traditionally called “Israeli Night,” where large numbers of Israelis are invited to participate in the Feast of Tabernacles celebration, The Covenant will be performed twice on Thursday, September 26th. At 7:30 p.m. Feast Registrants will see attend the showing in English, and at 9:30, the Israeli public will be hosted at a performance combining English and Hebrew dialogue. > > \< snip \> > > Due to the generosity of Christians abroad, we were able to provide hundreds of Israeli guests with complimentary tickets for the Festival of the Arts performance [**Note: which took place last May**], and our goal is to exceed this for the Feast of Tabernacles. The ICCJ auditorium seats approximately 4000, and our desire is to fill it to capacity. > > To help cover the costs of this exciting new project, we are looking for Christian funding overseas. We invite you to sponsor seats for Israeli guests to enable them to see this timely and inspiring musical on their biblical past and prophetic redemption. Would it be unforgiveably snide of me to point out that in theatrical parlance, they apparently “comped” the theater, meaning they gave out free tickets to make sure all the seats were filled? BTW, the [Convention Center thinks its auditorium only seats 3,100 people, not 4,000.](http://www.iccjer.co.il/page2.htm) Silly ICCJ–don’t they know that He who fed the 5,000 can also seat the 4,000? 😃 So, anyway, I’d like to know where the OP got the “10,000” figure, no matter whether it’s for Jews or non-Jews. I would also like to point out, for those who are having trouble with the way some of us are interpreting the motives of the ICEJ as being completely self-serving, that they should consider what’s going to happen to all this “Bless Israel” boosterism if (or “when”) according to the Pre-Mill eschatology, Jesus _does_ come back? The whole point of that is so that He can gather all the True Believers up to heaven (the “Rapture”), nevermore to live on Earth, so as far as the ICEJ is concerned, when all their hard work handing out air conditioners and bed linens finally pays off and they find themselves flying bodily up to heaven, it’ll be “so long, Israel, and thanks for all the gefilte fish”. Thus cheerfully abandoning the Israeli Jews to the Seven Years’ Great Tribulation, climaxed by Armageddon, held on their home turf. Bless Israel, indeed… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/32 "2002-09-30T14:33:58Z")
Jomo Mojo wrote: > [@](#): > > Edward Said is a member of the Anglican Church. Do you mean the Xlican Church? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/33 "2002-09-30T14:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Jomo Mojo wrote: > > Do you mean the Xlican Church? \*\* Well, as the X is an ancient Xtian abbrev for Christ, and the Anglican Church is not the Chistiglan church, no he would not mean that. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/34 "2002-09-30T14:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > “so long, Israel, and thanks for all the gefilte fish” :D:D:D:D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/35 "2002-09-30T15:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Well, as the X is an ancient Xtian abbrev for Christ, and the Anglican Church is not the Chistiglan church, no he would not mean that. \*\* Wouldn’t it be Xian, then? Unless you are referring to the Christtians, a group with which I am unfamiliar 😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/36 "2002-09-30T15:04:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\* > Wouldn’t it be Xian, then? > > Unless you are referring to the Christtians, a group with which I am unfamiliar 😃 \*\* Bah humbug. Yes. Okay, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Xians is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/37 "2002-09-30T15:05:49Z")
Collounsbury wrote: > [@](#): > > Well, as the X is an ancient Xtian abbrev for Christ, and the Anglican Church is not the Chistiglan church, no he would not mean that. Oh, sure. As far as I’m concerned, abbreviate all you like. The shorter the better. (Incidentally, in the spirit of nitpickery, which I know you love, X is not the ancient abbreviation. [symbol]C[/symbol] is the ancient abbreviation. X is a modern one.) ---
**Author:** ![Ronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@Ronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/38 "2002-09-30T15:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > So, anyway, I’d like to know where the OP got the “10,000” figure, no matter whether it’s for Jews or non-Jews. Ostensibly, the info seems to be _first-hand_, does it not? > [@](#): > > Over 10,000 non- Jews, along with a couple hundred Jewish Israeli guests like myself attended. (The last above quote is from the OP itself). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/39 "2002-09-30T15:18:16Z")
Well, yes I could go to the trouble of getting the actual Greek character(\*), rather than the close substitute, the derived latin character, but I don’t see the point. (\*: for those who don’t know it is included in windows character set in several places, among them the math symbols) ---
**Author:** ![akohl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@akohl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akohl)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113/40 "2002-09-30T17:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Actually, you did. You may recall the use of the words “no reason other than blind hatred.” Feel free to disavow that as hyperbole or poor expression, but “blind hatred” is not a “legitimate grievance.” \*\* Perhaps a bit of a poor expression. So here is what I MEANT by it, if I didn’t express the idea clearly enough. What I am saying is that the types of actions and statements made by Islamic enemies of Israel cannot be explained by the legitimate reasons they have for opposing the policies of the Israeli government. Those legitimate grievances are not the reasons for their actions and statements. Blind hatred, which is taught at a young age in the schools and via other media throughout the Arab world, does contribute to the kind of cruel attitudes that inspire terrorism. So its not the only reason for what’s going on in the Arab world today. But blind hatred is the decisive for the most extreme forms of cruelty that threaten us all as law abiding citiizens, Jews and non-Jews alike. I intend to look at the other comments made in this thread and respond to them. But right now I just had time for this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-christians-from-an-israeli-jew/130113.md?page=3)