# Thank you fellow New Jersey voters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096 "2010-03-20T02:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/41 "2010-03-24T15:31:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Those are fair points - the numbers don’t sound all that outsized when you run the math. But can anyone really expect \>9% returns these days, as a ‘new normal’? I know that historically they may have done that, but the Dow isn’t that much higher than it was 9 years ago. > > More importantly - we cannot assume that NJ actually put the money aside to pay these pensions. Private companies must do this (as per ERISA, to stop guys like Kirk using TWAs pension fund as a piggie bank), but states (and w/SS, feds) underfund their pension funds all the time. Clearly NJ was running a Ponzi scheme over the last decade or two, and now the chickens have come home to roost. Exactly, and this is the huge problem with public pensions. For decades, elected officials promised huge benefits by assuming they could earn very high rates. The people managing pension funds - and not just in NJ, but across the US - simply wrote down their “expected return” numbers with no consideration of risk. In a lot of cases, they continued to make big investments while markets were falling or were about to, simply because “there were big returns”. The problem is worse in the “blue states”, partly because they tended to have big-city pensions and partly because they have more union-negotiated pensions. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/42 "2010-03-24T15:32:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Those are fair points - the numbers don’t sound all that outsized when you run the math. But can anyone really expect \>9% returns these days, as a ‘new normal’? I know that historically they may have done that, but the Dow isn’t that much higher than it was 9 years ago. See my previous post on the subject: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’d need a 10% rate of return, which is more or less the market average ([9.4%](http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2009/03/average-annual-stock-market-return.html) from 1900-2009). That average annual return is calculated including the 2009 crash. > [@mack](#): > > I suspect one can put up numbers like this for any pension plan. It’s not peculiar to NJ. > > 1.4 million over 25-30 years is around 46k-56k per year, which is probably at the lower end of mid-middle class for NJ. Nice to have, but hardly scandalous or excessive. Health insurance premiums over the same time is ~7200-8600 per year. That’s not a whole lot, either. This is essentially my exact point. Additionally, _ceteris paribus_, states pay less for insurance plans than private employers, since (1) they generally have a lot more lives, and (2) they can effectively set their own rates via legislation and enforced monopolies. I’ve asked a friend to pull the exact cost of the NJ state employees’ health plan. [QUOTE=Mr Smashy] More importantly - we cannot assume that NJ actually put the money aside to pay these pensions. Private companies must do this (as per ERISA, to stop guys like Kirk using TWAs pension fund as a piggie bank), but states (and w/SS, feds) underfund their pension funds all the time. Clearly NJ was running a Ponzi scheme over the last decade or two, and now the chickens have come home to roost. [/QUOTE] This, I think, is a more germane point - but there’s no reason that states cannot require themselves to properly fund their pension plans _a la_ ERISA. The taxpayers just don’t care enough to make them. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/43 "2010-03-24T22:17:51Z")
There’s a flyer in my daughter’s bookbag today. Her school will lose **85%** of our state funding under the current budget proposal. I reiterate: FUCK YOU GOVERNOR CHRISTIE. You miserable bastard. You prick. You dumb slime. You stupid, useless, Republican ideologue. You cannot raise taxes on most middle class voters in this state and attempt to fuck up our schools at the same time. This will not attract businesses to this state. And fuck the Conservatives in this thread for defending tax hikes on the middle class and cuts to the public schools. You got your lousy war on Iraq and your handouts to the banking industry. The rest of us are apparently going to spent our blood, sweat and tears paying for it. You all suck. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/44 "2010-03-25T02:33:59Z")
Your state is reaping what many previous governments, mostly Democratic, have sown. You should be far more mad at the situation the Dems have put you in, as they’ve owned the statehouse for many years, and most of the worst budget damage has happened under Corzine. I know you won’t because you brainwashed by the NJ teachers’ union or similar sources. So be it. Remember, Bush lied, people died. No blood for oil. Etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/45 "2010-04-01T12:47:21Z")
I am a New Jersey State Employee and don’t believe the budget problem was caused by our salary or benefits liked Christie is stating. For quite a few years the state has NOT been contributing their share to the pension plan. Thanks to that lack of funds the amount on hand has not increased due to compounding. Here is a copy if my latest [paystub](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/MannyLNJ/SDMB/paycheck.jpg) I am already paying a portion of my salary for my health benefits and have given up work days which is why it shows 9 days instead of 10. I’m off to work now. Will post when I get home. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/46 "2010-04-01T13:23:23Z")
Linky no work. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/47 "2010-04-01T13:57:55Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Your state is reaping what many previous governments, mostly Democratic, have sown. You should be far more mad at the situation the Dems have put you in, as they’ve owned the statehouse for many years, and most of the worst budget damage has happened under Corzine. > > I know you won’t because you brainwashed by the NJ teachers’ union or similar sources. So be it. > > Remember, Bush lied, people died. No blood for oil. Etc etc. Fuck you. People like you spend your lives whining about teachers and then wonder why the teaching profession is held in such low esteem in many parts of the country. You do shit like that and wonder why the school system is such a mess in much of the country and why our kids drop out or leave school with minimal skills. You wouldn’t last five minutes in a classroom full of sixth graders. The teachers are the goddamned reason the school system in this state works. We have the highest high school graduation rate in the entire fucking country. In the meantime my daughter and her friends will literally pay the price for Bush’s lousy war and cuts in state aid as a result. The school board met last night. They’re cutting half a dozen teacher’s aids, not replacing two teachers who are retiring in the 3rd and 4th grades and cutting out orchestra and Spanish. So the third and fourth graders will have 25 kids in a classroom instead of 17. Nice work governor asshole. And someone somewhere who makes $400,000 a year, so much fucking money I don’t what the hell you do with it, that overpaid little person will reap the benefits of a few more pennies in his pocket. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/48 "2010-04-01T14:30:18Z")
I voted for the losing third party candidate as I hate Corzine and did not trust Christy further then I could throw him. Christy sucks, Corzine sucks, McGreevey sucked. Who knew Wittman would start looking good after a while. However, Christy did inherit this mess from mostly Corzine. I don’t like how he is fixing things, but he has to cut money somewhere. I can think of plenty of places besides education, but wherever he makes the cuts people will bitch and complain. The economy sucks, the irresponsibility of past Governors really sucks. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/49 "2010-04-01T14:46:40Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I voted for the losing third party candidate as I hate Corzine and did not trust Christy further then I could throw him. > > Christy sucks, Corzine sucks, McGreevey sucked. Who knew Wittman would start looking good after a while. > > However, Christy did inherit this mess from mostly Corzine. I don’t like how he is fixing things, but he has to cut money somewhere. I can think of plenty of places besides education, but wherever he makes the cuts people will bitch and complain. > > The economy sucks, the irresponsibility of past Governors really sucks. I agree that Corzine was not a great governor nor was McGreevey Mr. “I’m leaving office because I’m being blackmailed by my lover” particularly better either. But there are better ways to handle a budget crisis than to punish kids with larger classrooms and spend your time in office ranting against teachers. I don’t want a governor who feels compelled to pick a fight with some of hardest working people in this state. That’s one of the stupidest fucking things you can do. I don’t want people who are thinking of teaching our kids that the governor is not on their side. There are also better ways to deal with a budget crisis than to tell one group of people (people who pay property taxes) that their taxes can rise while telling another group of people (people who make over $400,000 a year) that their taxes can fall. Christie has only been in office a few months. So far he completely sucks at it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/50 "2010-04-01T15:54:24Z")
Well, **Lav** , here’s what the AC Press [says](http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/opinion/editorials/article_4a0b60e5-2af4-5be8-9c1f-2a9a0c3ba74d.html) about it. > [@](#): > > State Education Commissioner Bret Schundler provided the math lesson: If all of the school employees in the state accepted a wage freeze and paid 1.5 percent of their salary toward health benefits next year, it would save taxpayers nearly enough to offset the $820 million in school-aid cuts. Layoffs could be avoided. Sports and extracurricular programs might be restored. All it would take is for teachers and other school personnel to agree. > And most teachers, so far, have provided a rather dubious lesson in shared sacrifice: Teachers in only a handful of districts, mostly in northern New Jersey, have agreed to forgo wage increases for one year in order to stave off the budget cuts. > Those wage increases, according to Schundler, average 4.3 percent. And teachers would still get longevity increases. > > Consider that in the private sector, wage freezes have been a fact of life for years. Even private-sector unions have offered givebacks in order to reduce layoffs or keep companies afloat. On the municipal level, police and other municipal employees have been negotiating givebacks and wage freezes in order to hold down layoffs during these difficult times. So quit whining and man up. Either do your job, or quit and find something else to do. And as for the tax, I notice that the Dems could have easily extended it before Christie took office, but they chose not to, probably for political reasons. I don’t see you blaming them, probably because, as a NEA member, you are forbidden by blood oath to ever criticize a Democrat. But now that there’s some adult supervision in Trenton, perhaps things will pick up for your state in a few years. PS Could I survive in a class of 6th graders? Not for 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/51 "2010-04-01T20:01:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Linky no work. [This would seem to be the right one.](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/MannyLNJ/SDMB/paycheck.jpg) I reported the post with a link to the right URL. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/52 "2010-04-01T20:05:32Z")
Huh. I figured he’d redact it or something, but no, he’s got his salary posted right there on the interwebs. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/53 "2010-04-01T20:24:38Z")
Now I kinda wanna post mine, but inflate it to some ridiculous seven-figure number. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/54 "2010-04-01T22:55:00Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Fuck you. Reminder: [QUOTE=Restricted language in the Pit] The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. * * * fuck you [/QUOTE] [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) **Gfactor** Snuggly Kitten Forum Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/55 "2010-04-01T22:55:37Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > [This would seem to be the right one.](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/MannyLNJ/SDMB/paycheck.jpg) I reported the post with a link to the right URL. Fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/56 "2010-04-02T15:10:21Z")
I guess I struck a nerve… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/57 "2010-04-02T19:53:29Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > New Jersey doesn’t have the money because the Republicans feds ruined the economy not because we pay public servants halfway decent wages. > > Christie’s “hard choices” consist of lowering taxes on people making over $400,000 a year and raising them on nearly everyone else including people like myself. That’s not a hard choice. That’s screwing over the middle class or Republican governance at its most blatantly ideological and truly ugly. > > He’s trying to turn this fine state into another Mississippi. He’ll be out on his ear in another four years if he keeps it up. Do you have a cite that says the property tax increase doesn’t apply to people making $400k+ a year? Unless this is written in the law, aren’t they being hit by a tax increase as well? Again, you seem to conveniently forget that the $400k “tax cut” is actually a scheduled phasing out of a tax increase implemented a year prior. Did you have _your_ taxes increased last year? If you did, and were told that it was temporary, don’t you think it had better _be_ temporary? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/58 "2010-04-02T19:58:11Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > There are also better ways to deal with a budget crisis than to tell one group of people (people who pay property taxes) that their taxes can rise while telling another group of people (people who make over $400,000 a year) that their taxes can fall. Again, this bizarre assumption that people who make over $400k _don’t own property_. 😕 Got any statistics to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/59 "2010-04-02T20:10:43Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Well, **Lav** , here’s what the AC Press [says](http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/opinion/editorials/article_4a0b60e5-2af4-5be8-9c1f-2a9a0c3ba74d.html) about it. In that article: > [@](#): > > Those wage increases, according to Schundler, average 4.3 percent. And teachers would still get longevity increases. Shit, Lavender’s getting a 4.3% pay increase ($2,150 on a salary of $50k) while bitching about a $800 tax increase? Isn’t that a (pre-tax) net gain of $1,350? We should all be so lucky. (And what is a “longevity increase”? And how much is it? And where can I find one of those?) Lavender, are you willing to give up your one-time pay increase to save these programs? Have you made your desire known? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/60 "2010-04-02T20:47:33Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In that article: > > Shit, Lavender’s getting a 4.3% pay increase ($2,150 on a salary of $50k) while bitching about a $800 tax increase? Isn’t that a (pre-tax) net gain of $1,350? > > We should all be so lucky. > > (And what is a “longevity increase”? And how much is it? And where can I find one of those?) > > Lavender, are you willing to give up your one-time pay increase to save these programs? Have you made your desire known? This is why I think unions are about the worst thing to happen to the American economy since oil cartel shenanigans. They get fat and lazy, whine when they don’t get exactly what they want, and expect their allies on the left to take care of them forever. The economy in NJ has been crushed since the financial crisis. They pay about the highest taxes around, insurance costs a fortune, and their public servants have been insulated (to this point) from feeling the effects of the tough times. As the piece I linked to pointed out, the private sector has been taking it in the short hairs for years, with RIFs, wage freezes, etc. But the NJ NEA and the ruling Democratic party of NJ have been engaged in this mutual suicide pact for years, with their current crisis the result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096.md?page=4)