# Thank you fellow New Jersey voters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096 "2010-03-20T02:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/61 "2010-04-02T21:21:07Z")
I just want to know why **Lavender** didn’t bother to mention the pay raise, since it’s being paid for by program and staff cuts. I’m glad you’re (Lavender) making out better on this deal, but why demand that others sacrifice when you’re unwilling to do the same? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/62 "2010-04-02T21:36:36Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > This is why I think unions are about the worst thing to happen to the American economy since oil cartel shenanigans. They get fat and lazy, whine when they don’t get exactly what they want, and expect their allies on the left to take care of them forever. Yeah, fuck unions. What have they ever done for us other than the 40-hour workweek, minimum wage laws, workplace safety standards, unemployment insurance, and child labor prohibitions? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/63 "2010-04-02T22:19:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, fuck unions. What have they ever done for us other than the 40-hour workweek, minimum wage laws, workplace safety standards, unemployment insurance, and child labor prohibitions? Oh, I’m not saying at one point there wasn’t a time and place for them. But they’re about as helpful these days as an artificial appendix. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/64 "2010-04-02T22:28:19Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I guess I struck a nerve… Exuse me. You just got me when I was very busy at work and did not have time to reply to a cite. Some of us peons actually have jobs. I have to worker harder now that we have a Republican governor in office. What a fucking surprise! Brett Schundler ran for governor twice and was twice rejected. If we want his opinions we would have voted for him. We didn’t. The governor is picking a fight with the teacher’s unions. The governor is an idiot. While perhaps the 4.5% is excessive (and I don’t know what sort of raise teachers have gotten in the past) starting one’s term in office by screeching at the teachers is offensive and counterproductive. It’s typically idiotic Republican rhetoric and cheap as hell. I am sick to god of people like yourself and that idiot Christie taking potshots at teachers. When you continually imply that that teachers are lazy, selfish, overpaid useless morons all you do is make in harder to get good people to teach in the public schools. It’s also incredibly offensive coming from a party that never has anything nasty to say about the most vile CEO behavior yet somehow finds time to perpertually snipe at those who do one of of our society’s most difficult and important jobs. Given the Republican party’s constant clear contempt for anyone with an education I am not surprised. I am incredibly disgusted to wake up one day and find that attitude in the governor of my state. > [@JohnT](#): > > Do you have a cite that says the property tax increase doesn’t apply to people making $400k+ a year? Unless this is written in the law, aren’t they being hit by a tax increase as well? > > Again, you seem to conveniently forget that the $400k “tax cut” is actually a scheduled phasing out of a tax increase implemented a year prior. Did you have _your_ taxes increased last year? If you did, and were told that it was temporary, don’t you think it had better _be_ temporary? The problem is that you can say the same about the property tax rebates. Why are property tax rebates being pushed aside while taxes on those making $400,000 a year being kept? How is that fair? Why I am being asked to pay $800 a year more in taxes while other taxpayers aren’t being asked to do the same? FYI, I am not a teacher anymore. I sucked at it so I left. As a full time freelancer I now make more than just about any teacher I’ve ever met. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/65 "2010-04-02T22:40:47Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In that article: > > Shit, Lavender’s getting a 4.3% pay increase ($2,150 on a salary of $50k) while bitching about a $800 tax increase? Isn’t that a (pre-tax) net gain of $1,350? > > We should all be so lucky. > > (And what is a “longevity increase”? And how much is it? And where can I find one of those?) > > Lavender, are you willing to give up your one-time pay increase to save these programs? Have you made your desire known? In case you failed to read my other post: I AM NOT A TEACHER ANYMORE. Maybe that’s why I made almost 100k last year? 😉 A 50k salary for a job that requires a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree to reach the top of the payscale is hardly a great big giant sum. I love how Republicans act like some poor CEO will literally die from lack of motivation if we fail to pay him a few million but oh my god the world will come to an end if we pay a municipal employee more than minimum wage. As I am wrote the wage increases seem excessive but it is disgusting to see my state’s highest elected official making enemies of the people who serve one of the state’s most important functions. It’s also ridiculous that Christie also claims that he’s not raising taxes while at the same time getting rid of my property tax rebate. That’s just bullshit. If that’s not a tax hike WTF is? Where the Republican outrage in this thread about my extra $800 in taxes taxes year? Do tax hikes not count if you’re only raising taxes on the middle class? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/66 "2010-04-02T22:43:08Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Reminder: > [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) > > **Gfactor** > Snuggly Kitten Forum Moderator Sowwy. _blushes madly_ ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/67 "2010-04-02T23:51:51Z")
what kind of freelancing? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/68 "2010-04-03T01:02:12Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Oh, I’m not saying at one point there wasn’t a time and place for them. But they’re about as helpful these days as an artificial appendix. Yeah, lets get rid of them and get back to some Real thievery. Newport, Rhode Island, needs a few more mansions… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/69 "2010-04-03T02:27:24Z")
Ahem, CEO salaries have nothing to do with teacher pay. CEOs are paid from revenue their companies generate by competing with other companies and getting people to buy their goods and services. They are paid with private funds. It is up to their board of directors to determine how much they should be paid. Teacher salaries are determined by state and local community budgets and are paid from public funds. There is no equivalence. Nor should there be. People making over $400,000 are paying increased property taxes just like you are. What’s unfair about that? And if you made almost $100,000 last year why is an $800 increase in your property taxes such a cause of outrage for you? You should be able to handle that easily. And there are socialistic tax-and-spend types who would regard YOUR income as egregious and think you should be taxed to the hilt, too. What would you say to them that the $400,000 earners couldn’t just as easily (and as justifiably) say to you? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/70 "2010-04-03T03:01:27Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Well **Lavender** , I’m shocked - shocked i tell you - that a liberal (I’m guessing, based on your constant Rich-guys-are-all-evil stuff) chose to go emotional instead of a discussion based on facts. Right on! How’s that hopey changey thing working out for you?! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/71 "2010-04-03T16:13:59Z")
So **Lav** , I see that you still refuse to address the fact that the Dems, before Corzine left, could have easily extended the higher taxes on those making over $400k. They chose not to, either for political reasons (likely) or because they understand that doing that could cause their tax base to flee, a la what happened in [Maryland](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html). Now, I get it, you’re an emotionbot so you won’t be able to discuss this rationally. But unless you’re willing to blame the Dems as well, why should anyone take you seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/72 "2010-04-03T16:40:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > They chose not to, either for political reasons (likely) or because they understand that doing that could cause their tax base to flee, a la what happened in [Maryland](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html). LOL. Anything else you can think of that occurred between April 2008 and April 2009 that may have caused a decline in the number of millionaires ? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/73 "2010-04-03T19:38:18Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > LOL. > > Anything else you can think of that occurred between April 2008 and April 2009 that may have caused a decline in the number of millionaires ? Dont overthink this. The point is that the wealthy are mobile. Only an idiot would deny that. They’re also smart; they chase the lower marginal tax rates. If NJ were to have extended the surtax on the over-400k crowd, you’d have to be blind or incredibly niave to believe that some of that coveted tax base wouldn’t leave for safer financial harbors. If NJ Dems were actually intelligent, I’d suggest that that’s the reason why they didn’t extend the tax (it wasn’t a tax cut, no matter how much **Lav** wants to rant and rave. However, knowing NJ as well as I do (having lived there 20 years and I still follow it closely because I have a ton of relatives there) I believe that they didn’t pass the tax increase because they knew Christie wouldn’t either, therefore giving them a talking point. Not that the attack is worth all that much, except to the ignorant/class warfare types; it’s not like the NEA is going to ever back a Republican anyway. They sold their soul years ago - that’s what I mean about the blood oath that our OP has clearly taken. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/74 "2010-04-03T21:34:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Dont overthink this. The point is that the wealthy are mobile. Only an idiot would deny that. They’re also smart; they chase the lower marginal tax rates. no, the point is that the cite you used to prove your point doesn’t actually prove your point. Only an idiot would think that it does. > [@](#): > > If NJ were to have extended the surtax on the over-400k crowd, you’d have to be blind or incredibly niave to believe that some of that coveted tax base wouldn’t leave for safer financial harbors was this the experience in New Jersey when they implemented the first 400k surtax? Methinks that if that was the case, you would’ve readily had a cite to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/75 "2010-04-03T21:54:16Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, the point is that the cite you used to prove your point doesn’t actually prove your point. Only an idiot would think that it does. > > was this the experience in New Jersey when they implemented the first 400k surtax? Methinks that if that was the case, you would’ve readily had a cite to that effect. I understand that many on this board, when faced with inconvienent truths like this (ie, the laws of economics), start crying for cites. From the linked piece: > [@](#): > > The Maryland state revenue office says it’s “way too early” to tell how many millionaires moved out of the state when the tax rates rose. \*\*\*But no one disputes that some rich filers did leave. \*\*\*It’s easier than the redistributionists think. Christopher Summers, president of the Maryland Public Policy Institute, notes: “Marylanders with high incomes typically own second homes in tax friendlier states like Florida, Delaware, South Carolina and Virginia. So it’s easy for them to change their residency.” (\*emphasis mine) Lest you think that the Maryland Public Policy Insitute is some right-wing propoganda machine, they are “a nonpartisan public policy research and education organization that focuses on state policy issues”. I understand that people making less money during that timeframe is also a contributing factor - in fact, it probably accounts for the majority of the reduced filings; I never suggested millionaire flight was the \*only \*cause. However it’s clear that a big part of the tax base has skedaddled to better states thanks to the higher taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/76 "2010-04-03T21:59:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I understand that many on this board, when faced with inconvienent truths like this (ie, the laws of economics), start crying for cites. From the linked piece: > > (\*emphasis mine) Lest you think that the Maryland Public Policy Insitute is some right-wing propoganda machine, they are “a nonpartisan public policy research and education organization that focuses on state policy issues”. > > I understand that people making less money during that timeframe is also a contributing factor - in fact, it probably accounts for the majority of the reduced filings; I never suggested millionaire flight was the \*only \*cause. However it’s clear that a big part of the tax base has skedaddled to better states thanks to the higher taxes. The claim that no one disputes that it did is an unattributed opinion penned by the author of that news article. It’s not a quote attributed to the Maryland Dept. of Revenue, or even to that Public Policy institute. It’s an unwarranted conclusion. If it’s such a truth, what you are claiming, then can you explain how Hawaii has simultaneously the highest top income tax bracket amongst all states of the union and the highest concentrations of millionaires (excluding primary household) ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/77 "2010-04-03T23:40:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ahem, CEO salaries have nothing to do with teacher pay. CEOs are paid from revenue their companies generate by competing with other companies and getting people to buy their goods and services. They are paid with private funds. It is up to their board of directors to determine how much they should be paid. Teacher salaries are determined by state and local community budgets and are paid from public funds. > > There is no equivalence. Nor should there be. Nonsense. Dick Cheney didn’t make fifteen million by having nothing to do with the public sector. The private and public sectors are completely intertwined. If the feds did not police the market no one would invest in it and no CEO would make anything at all. Hell we just bailed out the bankers in 2008 because they were too big to fail. So the teacher loses her job and it’s who cares. The people at AIG fuck up the economy and they’re too big to fail so we go into hock to pay them. We socialize loss in this country and privatize profit. MY DAUGHTER’S SCHOOL IS GOING INTO HOCK TO PAY FOR AIG FUCK UPS. You’re damned right I resent it. > [@](#): > > People making over $400,000 are paying increased property taxes just like you are. What’s unfair about that? > > And if you made almost $100,000 last year why is an $800 increase in your property taxes such a cause of outrage for you? You should be able to handle that easily. Because the idiot governor came into office promising no tax increases. One of his first acts as governor is to get rid of a tax rebate. As a result my property taxes are jumping by 17%. What he really obviously meant is no new taxes on some people. Typical Republican policy. > [@](#): > > And there are socialistic tax-and-spend types who would regard YOUR income as egregious and think you should be taxed to the hilt, too. What would you say to them that the $400,000 earners couldn’t just as easily (and as justifiably) say to you? And maybe that’s the difference between us. I’m an adult. I don’t mind paying taxes. I think that only little children and libertarians whine about paying them in the first place. What I mind is paying more than others who make more than I do or paying them to fund a war in Iraq while we’re laying off local teacher’s aids who make about as much money as you average check out cashier for a job that’s a lot harder. I mind a governor who gets into office and immediately starts going after the teachers and turning them into the enemy. Teachers are not the enemy. This is payback by a governor who is annoyed that the teacher’s union did not support him in the governor’s race because he supports idiotic ideas like vouchers. He ought to be above this kind of nonsense. Demonizing teachers as the enemy of the state is well . . . . Republican. I am sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/78 "2010-04-03T23:57:55Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So **Lav** , I see that you still refuse to address the fact that the Dems, before Corzine left, could have easily extended the higher taxes on those making over $400k. They chose not to, either for political reasons (likely) or because they understand that doing that could cause their tax base to flee, a la what happened in [Maryland](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html). > > Now, I get it, you’re an emotionbot so you won’t be able to discuss this rationally. But unless you’re willing to blame the Dems as well, why should anyone take you seriously? This from the newspaper that described those making 12k a year as lucky duckies because they aren’t paying federal taxes. Oh to make 12k a year! I think we should all be so lucky! Or because it’s so logical that one should treat people making 400k and over a year as the most valuable citizens of the state. And in the meantime turn those making $58,000 a year who teach our kids as our enemies. Yeah. You know what? You don’t want to live here? DON’T LIVE HERE. I only live here because my husband’s job (and our medical insurance through said job) is in NYC. And I hate Long Island. Being able to go to the Bronx Zoo on a nice day doesn’t hurt either. This is not an easy state to live in and probably never will be. We have high property taxes and crowded roads. We also have fabulous beaches and easy access to Philadelphia to NYC to make up for it. But I am sick to god of Republicans like yourself who act as if if you make a certain sum of money you should be feted and courted and admired at every turn. Whereas if you work for the state you should be treated like the enemy. I have a neighbor like that already. Half the conversations at the bus stop in the morning are about how overtaxed her husband it and how they can barely make ends meet on his 300k salary. Meanwhile they take two vacations a year, she hires a maid even though she’s a stay at home mom with no job and her kids in school for much of the day and they’ve turned her house into a refuge for every gadget known to mankind. She clearly has no idea what the heck to do with the money they already earn. She’s a fairly nice person but I swear to god I’d ten times rather have a first grade teacher (making that evil sum of $58,000 a year) instead as a neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Maple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jeff\_Maple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Maple)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/79 "2010-04-04T00:03:42Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Because the idiot governor came into office promising no tax increases. One of his first acts as governor is to get rid of a tax rebate. As a result my property taxes are jumping by 17%. Oh noes, you make $100K a year and you have to pay an extra $800 in taxes. Boo Hoo. From each according to his ability… ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096/80 "2010-04-04T00:08:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I understand that many on this board, when faced with inconvienent truths like this (ie, the laws of economics), start crying for cites. From the linked piece: > > (\*emphasis mine) Lest you think that the Maryland Public Policy Insitute is some right-wing propoganda machine, they are “a nonpartisan public policy research and education organization that focuses on state policy issues”. > > I understand that people making less money during that timeframe is also a contributing factor - in fact, it probably accounts for the majority of the reduced filings; I never suggested millionaire flight was the \*only \*cause. However it’s clear that a big part of the tax base has skedaddled to better states thanks to the higher taxes. So? Most millionaires could probably find it much easier to live in just about any other state than NJ. Property taxes and income taxes are lower nearly anywhere else. Granted it’s a long commute from Texas to the markets on Wall Street but I’m sure the lowered property taxes, terrible climate and textbooks created by right wing religious fanatics more make up for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-fellow-new-jersey-voters/533096.md?page=5)