# Thank you, Mr. President **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825 "2002-03-12T12:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/21 "2002-03-13T02:23:52Z")
China Guy is absolutely right, and this is a horrible decision. Easily the worst decision of the Bush Presidency so far. As China Guy said, mini-mills in the U.S. compete just fine. This is all about the big unions and old-style steel production that is totally non-competitive, in part because of lousy management and inefficient methods, and in part because management caved to unions and gave them a health and benefits package that it couldn’t afford to give. The repercussions of this go far. On the domestic front, the decision punishes steel consumers and competitive steel mills who would have had a larger market share without the tariffs. It also isolates the unions from the consequences of their over-reaching demands. Internationally, it punishes countries like Great Britain and Australia, who have been the biggest supporters of the war on terror. So it hurts the war effort. It also opens the door for every other special interest to demand the same thing. I have a rant about this on my website if anyone is interested: [Bush Wins the Trifecta](http://happyfunpundit.blogspot.com/2002_03_10_happyfunpundit_archive.html#10624053). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/22 "2002-03-13T02:34:39Z")
**China Guy** , just because a company’s listed on the stock exchange doesn’t mean it can’t get government subsidies. Ever heard of Chrysler? They got a **big** subsidy from the US government back in the '80s. (Most of the big agricultural corporations in the US get big subsidies too.) And one of the reasons the mini-mills in the US are profitable and the big mills aren’t is that the mini-mills mainly recycle scrap steel and the big mills refine raw ore into steel. That being said, the tariffs Bush enacted should have been contigent upon the mills agreeing to make improvements in their production methods. That, however, would make sense, and it seems to be a law that no politician is allowed to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/23 "2002-03-13T03:01:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*That being said, the tariffs Bush enacted should have been contigent upon the mills agreeing to make improvements in their production methods. That, however, would make sense, and it seems to be a law that no politician is allowed to make sense. \*\* It’s better than that. It’s only temporary, for 3 years, and supposedly the other part of the plan is to force the industry to downsize and become more cost-efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/24 "2002-03-13T03:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by stofsky_ > Actually, it appears to be inconclusive, or at best questionable: Actually, it appears you’re grasping at straws in your reflexive need to think the worst about a politician you don’t like. One guy claimed it happened and two or three, including the producers who reviewed the tape, said it didn’t. Could we get a “Clinton killed Foster” poster to cancel this out, please? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lissener_ > Someone educate me: are we not being dumped upon by government-subsidized Russian and Japanese steel? Isn’t our steel industry in continued jeopardy because of this? As others have said, the history of protectionism has damaged the steel industry. The protection (including subsidies and legal protections beyond the tariff) has encouraged inefficient larger mills to stay open at the expense of mini-mills which are very competitive against foreign steel. The “dumping” argument comes from a change in the law that the steel industry and unions pushed for. Basically, they changed the law so that the price that a foreign competitor charges in its own country is not factored in to deciding whether the country is “dumping”. So when a foreign steel mill tries to deal with a slumping economy by selling steel below cost it’s considered “dumping” in the US even if they were selling it at the same price in their own country. A rational economic decision becomes the basis for protectionism and is used as an excuse for more protection. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tuckerfan_ > China Guy, just because a company’s listed on the stock exchange doesn’t mean it can’t get government subsidies. Sure, a company listed on the stock exchange can get subsidies. But I think China Guy’s point is that there is a lot of rhetoric about “dumping” but little evidence that foreign mills are engaging in a sustained pattern of below-price sales in order to deliberately “dump”. Sometimes, as I’ve mentioned, it makes sense to sell below cost (as many US mills do). But it’s really the rigging of the legal definition of “dumping” that allows mills to moan about “unfair” practices. ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/25 "2002-03-13T08:11:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > It’s better than that. It’s only temporary, for 3 years, and supposedly the other part of the plan is to force the industry to downsize and become more cost-efficient. Well, if it’s only for three years, then the rest of the world needs to ramp up steel production over the next few years, then, just as the US tariffs are dropped, we can FLOOD the US market with our stockpiles. Ah HA HA HA HA HA, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, ah HA HA ha… ha… ahem. Sorry, the evil genius inside me just kicked in. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/26 "2002-03-13T11:51:16Z")
Anyone going to retract their statement about Bush waving to Stevie Wonder, since it seems that at least it is impossible to tell if he did or not, and it seems likely that he did not? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/27 "2002-03-13T11:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*And in other news… Bush just ate a sandwich! That bastard! \*\* SPOOFE, you crack me up. Can I make this my new Sig? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/28 "2002-03-13T21:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > **And in other news… Bush just ate a sandwich!** Well, he _did_ [flub](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14077-2002Mar12.html) “The Itsy-Bitsy Spider” the other day. Completing a sandwich would be a major accomplishment by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/29 "2002-03-14T00:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*Anyone going to retract their statement about Bush waving to Stevie Wonder, since it seems that at least it is impossible to tell if he did or not, and it seems likely that he did not? \*\* [Scroll to the bottom](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45517-2002Mar6.html). Why do you think it “likely” it did not happen? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/30 "2002-03-14T00:48:40Z")
I’m glad this is in the pit…Elvis, thanks for that fuckin GREAT cite, totally rock-solid. Excellent work there. :rolleyes: Jesus Christ, are you a fuckin halfwit? Or can you do better than that? “A witness”? You think that’s reliable? Dumbass die-hard liberal pain in the ass. (disclaimer: I’m not using a sweeping brush labelling all liberals as such, just Elvis, because I’m tired of his bullshit anti-Bush antics and plain ridiculous behaviour when it comes to discussing politics) ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/31 "2002-03-14T04:56:36Z")
President Bush’s tariffs on steel imports go into effect on March 20, are a logical strategery. This controversial trade protection will actually work, despite all the criticism. President Bush is using concessions to steelworkers in eastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania and West Virginia to solidify the Republicans’ House seats there in the upcoming congressional elections, as well as to gather support in these three states in the upcoming presidential election in 2004. Bush’s plan may very well damage the American economy and will result in longstanding resentment from our foreign trading partners, but this will not matter to America’s steelworkers. They will perceive the trade protections as good for them, and will likely side with his party in this fall’s midterm elections, and with Bush himself in the 2004 presidential election. The tariffs expire in 2005, just after the presidential election. Bush’s plan also makes no concession to the dried-up pension plans, which is really the root of the pressure for the tariffs in the first place. A national health care system would have taken care of any pressure for trade protection, but it’s too late for that now. However, even though the pension-seekers are going to come up empty-handed in the long run, they’ll still approve of Bush’s pandering to them. It will take longer than three years for them to realize that Bush’s protections are a rip-off, anyway. Some might think it’s odd to say that Bush’s strategy will work even though it will result in higher prices for manufactured goods, no long-term (or short-term) solution for workers, and mounting resentment from most of America’s trading partners, but it would be wrong to call those signs of failure. Bush’s plan has nothing to do with any long-term improvement to anyone’s lot except the Republican party’s. The only goal of these tariffs is to bring pork to voters who would normally vote Democratic. A small segment of people in a small section of the country will seem to benefit, and the Republicans will keep control of the House, if all goes according to plan. And short-term gain is all that Bush is really interested in, anyway. Representative Ney (R-Ohio) said on the _News Hour with Jim Lehrer_ last week that one of the most important things about the tariffs is that they’re keeping the House together. Screw fairness; it’s all about the short term, huh, Mr. Ney? Mr. Bush? United we stand. [http://nnn.house.gov/201\_Statement\_3-5-02.htm](http://nnn.house.gov/201_Statement_3-5-02.htm) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/32 "2002-03-14T07:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\ ***China Guy** , just because a company’s listed on the stock exchange doesn’t mean it can’t get government subsidies. Ever heard of Chrysler? They got a **big** subsidy from the US government back in the '80s. (Most of the big agricultural corporations in the US get big subsidies too.) And one of the reasons the mini-mills in the US are profitable and the big mills aren’t is that the mini-mills mainly recycle scrap steel and the big mills refine raw ore into steel. \*\* Tuckerfan, just because the US supports certain listed industries does not mean that all other ocuntries do the same. Just because China still has pockets of the old style government socialist economy does not mean that they subsidize their listed companies. China has listed these massive steel producers precisely so that they are no longer subsidized and therefore are forced to compete in global markets. Somewhat ironic but in the case of steel, it looks like China can lecture the US. Also, if you buy the arguement that this is all a domestic political ploy to carry a few states, that adds strength to the arguement some countries use against instituting democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/33 "2002-03-14T15:22:03Z")
While we’re on the subject of odd reports from the Bush, has anyone else seen [this](http://news.excite.com/article/id/218174%7Coddlyenough%7C03-13-2002::10:40%7Creuters.html) story? > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush told college sports champions that the Sept. 11 attackers must have gotten an idea of the United States as a weak nation from watching “The Jerry Springer Show.” Reading through the article, I couldn’t tell if it’s as bad as it sounds, or if it’s just a case of creative quoting on the part of the writer. Do any of you guys know if Bush has now joined Robert Altman and Oliver Stone in blaming the media for 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/34 "2002-03-14T18:53:25Z")
Hmmm…looks like Snopes has shot down the “Bush waved at Wonder” thing a bit too. They officially claim it as being “False”. > **[George W. Bush Waved at Stevie Wonder?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/catch-the-wave/)** > > Did George W. Bush wave at blind musician Stevie Wonder at the 2002 Presidential Gala? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/35 "2002-03-14T21:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > Hmmm…looks like Snopes has shot down the “Bush waved at Wonder” thing a bit too. They officially claim it as being “False”. Eh, wait five minutes, Bush will do something else that’s forehead-slapping stupid for us to gape at (and for the Dubya Defenders to excuse). ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/36 "2002-03-14T21:59:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* the Dubya Defenders \*\* And that would make you a… what? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/37 "2002-03-15T02:15:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Tuckerfan, just because the US supports certain listed industries does not mean that all other ocuntries do the same. Just because China still has pockets of the old style government socialist economy does not mean that they subsidize their listed companies. China has listed these massive steel producers precisely so that they are no longer subsidized and therefore are forced to compete in global markets. > > Somewhat ironic but in the case of steel, it looks like China can lecture the US. Also, if you buy the arguement that this is all a domestic political ploy to carry a few states, that adds strength to the arguement some countries use against instituting democracy. \*\* **China Guy** , all countries subsidize some of their industries, its in their best interest to do so. I wasn’t bashing China, in fact, I hold China in rather high esteem. Compared to her 3,500 + years of history, America’s still a baby. I’ve often thought that US policy towards China was totally misguided because despite being less technologically advanced than the US, the Chinese are not stupid, and if the US isn’t careful, the Chinese will pass us in technology. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/38 "2002-03-15T23:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > And that would make you a… what? “Realist.” Or “cynic,” they’re synonimous these days. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825/39 "2002-03-16T02:50:06Z")
Hey, remember that time on the other board when **Elvis** went off on everyone for the whole Love Story thing? Can that whole thing be turned around on him now for the Stevie Wonder thing? And that was very classy of you to retract your Stevie Wonder comment with the grace you did, **rjung**. I’m surprised, I thought you were just as irrational as the Clinton-haters. But now I know you have far more class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thank-you-mr-president/97825.md?page=1)