# Thanks AGW deniers! We were getting tired of all those trees! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462 "2012-06-27T14:22:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![spazurek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@spazurek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazurek)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/1 "2012-06-27T14:22:10Z")
As a Coloradan, I’d like to personally thank all you who deny the existence of global warming, or of our ability/need to do anything about it, for courageously staying the course in the face of all the “scientific evidence” and “expert opinion”. I’ve always envied the face-of-the-moon landscape of Arizona, but the occasional moisture and mild climate kept promoting the growth of annoying forests all over the place. Not any more!! [Fires explode across the Front Range.](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20945863/several-fires-explode-across-front-range) I’m very pleased that you share my enthusiasm for desolate landscapes and indoor living. Keep up the good fight! We’re likely to face some “heat” (;)) in the aftermath of this destruction! Let’s just pray that Baby Jesus creates a halo of ice around Colorado Springs and especially (gasp!!) the Air Force Academy… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/2 "2012-06-27T14:26:57Z")
What do the fires have to do with AGW deniers? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/3 "2012-06-27T14:33:30Z")
That is some riveting reporting from the Post! > [@](#): > > …erupted with catastrophic fury… > [@](#): > > “This is a firestorm of epic proportions,” > [@](#): > > An apocalyptic plume of smoke… Is this really some global warming denialist’s fault? The fault of urban sprawl? The failure of forest management practices? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/4 "2012-06-27T14:37:03Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > What do the fires have to do with AGW deniers? It … got so hot the trees spontaneously combusted … ? 😃 Unless it’s something to do with climate change changing the local weather patterns –\> less rain –\> dry timber. Maybe. Hey OP - did I guess right? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/5 "2012-06-27T14:51:23Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > It … got so hot the trees spontaneously combusted … ? That was my first thought. Then I thought that AGW deniers set the fires, because those guys are dicks. ---
**Author:** ![spazurek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@spazurek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazurek)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/6 "2012-06-27T15:07:05Z")
What **Purplehorse** said. Many factors contribute to forest fires, but climate is a major one. Right now we have the choice between making things better and making things worse. AGW deniers choose the latter, so the liability is theirs. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/7 "2012-06-27T15:07:12Z")
Maybe the trees were set on fire when rational peoples’ heads exploded listening to AGW denier’s logic. ---
**Author:** ![spazurek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@spazurek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazurek)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/8 "2012-06-27T15:14:46Z")
In case anyone cares, [here’s some pertinent scientific evidence.](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fires-fuel-climate-change) ---
**Author:** ![spazurek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@spazurek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazurek)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/9 "2012-06-27T15:21:14Z")
Also: [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/10 "2012-06-27T15:29:27Z")
> [@spazurek](#): > > Also: [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm) OK, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![spazurek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@spazurek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazurek)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/11 "2012-06-27T15:51:10Z")
More timely article: [http://www.npr.org/2012/06/13/154959089/climate-change-may-spark-more-wildfires-in-future](http://www.npr.org/2012/06/13/154959089/climate-change-may-spark-more-wildfires-in-future) ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/12 "2012-06-27T16:17:17Z")
Except isn’t the ferocity of the current fires more directly related to the fact that environmentalists refused to allow the harvest of the beetle killed trees? There are a ton of factors in this fire and while I’m not a defender of the AGW contingent it’s quite a leap to lay this at their door. Hell even if we spent the last 20 years with everyone believing and pulling in the same direction we wouldn’t have made that much progress at this point since we’re talking about fractions of degrees over decades. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/13 "2012-06-27T16:20:39Z")
> [@spazurek](#): > > Also: [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710084004.htm) Huh, this was an item I was not aware of, I was going to say that the usual scientific approach to this is to realize that forest fires, both natural or man made, are not directly caused by global warming, but the key word here is that it \*\*amplifies \*\*the damage they cause as more energy is in the atmosphere increasing the damage. Well, besides the usual amplification, what I missed so far was this: > [@](#): > > To figure out the timing of peak snowmelt in the mountains for each year, the researchers used the streamflow gauge records from 240 stations throughout western North America. > > The team also used other climatic data including seasonal temperature observations and moisture deficit, an indicator of dryness. > > The researchers determined that year-to-year changes in wildfire frequency appear to be strongly linked to annual spring and summer temperatures and to the timing of spring snowmelt. > > “At higher elevations what really drives the fire season is the temperature. When you have a warm spring and early summer, you get rapid snowmelt,” Westerling said. “With the snowmelt coming out a month earlier, areas get drier overall. There is a longer season in which a fire can be started and more opportunity for ignition.” > > The researchers found that 56 percent of the wildfires and 72 percent of the total area burned occurred in early snowmelt years. By contrast, years when snowmelt happened much later than average had only 11 percent of the wildfires and 4 percent of the total area burned. > > Climate model projections suggest warmer springs and summers are more likely to occur in the West, amplifying the region’s vulnerability to wildfires, the researchers note in their article. > > The researchers suggest that more severe fires could change forest composition so drastically that the western forests, which currently store atmospheric carbon dioxide, could become a source of atmospheric CO2. Additional carbon dioxide could further warm the climate and exacerbate the fire problem. > > Swetnam was initially skeptical that climate was driving recent large-scale changes in fire frequency. Doing this research changed his mind. > > “I had thought it was primarily fuel load. These results suggest that for most western U.S. forests, climate is a primary driver and fuel is secondary.” He added, “In the Southwest we know we have a fuel problem. You lay on top of that warming temperatures and now we have the worst of both situations – changed forests and changed climate.” In essence, besides the prediction becoming spot on, global warming is not only amplifying the damage when the fires take place, global warming also creates an environment that is more conductive to huge forest fires as it reduces the snow pack and causes early springs and summers that dry the forests even more. On edit, **Moonlitherial** , you do need to check the articles before coming with that post, the answer is no. This is not a huge leap. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/14 "2012-06-27T17:09:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On edit, **Moonlitherial** , you do need to check the articles before coming with that post, the answer is no. This is not a huge leap. Not a huge leap that GW contributes to the increased ferocity of the fires which is what the articles discuss, but blaming the skeptics IS a huge leap. As I said, even if we all agreed decades ago there is significant doubt that we could have sufficient impact to have prevented this. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/15 "2012-06-27T17:09:07Z")
L2rain, Colorado. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/16 "2012-06-27T17:13:41Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Not a huge leap that GW contributes to the increased ferocity of the fires which is what the articles discuss, but blaming the skeptics IS a huge leap. As I said, even if we all agreed decades ago there is significant doubt that we could have sufficient impact to have prevented this. The problem with that statement is that it does ignore that the bad impacts that one will encounter even if we begin now (there is a lag on the effects of the green house gases released) **would be even worse if we do nothing**. Skeptics (and most of them are not skeptics, many do deny the climate science) have to be blamed for the worsening effects that will take place thanks to the inaction they managed to cause in the USA specially. > **[IEA reveals emissions are up again, but it’s not all bad news](https://theconversation.com/iea-reveals-emissions-are-up-again-but-its-not-all-bad-news-7321)** > > The numbers are just in. At a time when we need to be urgently reducing our CO₂ emissions, we are now emitting more than at any time in human history. However, it’s not too late to turn things around… > [@](#): > > The IEA notes that deploying the policies and the technologies that we need will take time to bear fruit, and that the poor infrastructure choices we make today will be with us for many years. In order to achieve the necessary emissions reductions, the IEA scenario envisages developed-country carbon taxes in the range $20-45 per tonne in 2020, rising to $95-120 for all countries by 2035. > > The good news is that we are making some progress. Despite its rapid development, China’s per capita emissions are still just 63% of the OECD average. This is thanks in large part to its efforts to improve energy efficiency and deploy clean energy. OECD emissions declined in 2011, albeit by a small amount. And there is still time to reduce our emissions sufficiently to avoid dangerous global warming. > > The bad news is that time is running out, and the longer we wait, the more difficult and expensive it will be to achieve the necessary emissions cuts. The elusive binding international agreement to reduce global CO₂ emissions approximately 80% by 2050 must be signed, and soon, or the necessary emissions cuts will become too steep to be practically achievable. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/17 "2012-06-27T17:47:25Z")
While I understand the assertion that AGW may contribute a teeny bit to the forest fires, there are many other contributing factors. The Pine Beattle, lack of harvesting of the dead wood, poor or no fire restoration programs (fire is natural, preventing it means that when it does happen, it’s much, much worse), and also, um, urbanization. By virtue of living in that area, you’re prone to things like forest fires. It’s not all global warming (btw, it’s actually ‘climate change’). ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/18 "2012-06-27T17:59:42Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > It’s not all global warming (btw, it’s actually ‘climate change’). Maybe it we changed it to global fireball people would take it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/19 "2012-06-27T18:20:46Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > What do the fires have to do with AGW deniers? Nothing. It’s just more liberal ranting. A friend of mine lives near Colorado Springs. He posted this on another site earlier: > [@](#): > > It’s been decades since we had a wildfire season this bad. Four major forest fires burning in the Colorado Rockies, and a half-dozen others threaten to become roaring conflagrations. Good old Denver Post has the best online and big picture coverage, but the Denver and Colorado Springs TV stations have been doing a top notch job of being on the scene. > > This is the “perfect storm” we’ve been dreading for years. The Rockies have become a tinderbox as the pine beetle has slowly strangled the vast Ponderosa pine stands and left them ghostly “pole” forests; meanwhile, the U.S. Forest Service, continuously harrassed by rabid environazis, has dragged its feet on logging out the dead trees. We’ve been on the ragged edge of catastrophic drought since the turn of the century (Denver has instituted more-stringent-than-usual water use regulations three of the past five years.) And now we have one of those summers when the jet stream parks high pressure cells over Four Corners and they just camp out there, pushing Gulf Coast moisture northeasterly away from us instead of swinging it around over the top of us to creat upslope and badly needed precipitation. That means lots of hot wind, lightning strikes, and no rain until August, if we’re lucky. AGW is not the issue. Moronic enviros are. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/20 "2012-06-27T18:25:37Z")
I’m kind of surprised at the environmentalists stopping the logging of these dead trees. What was the basis for their arguement? Any ‘environmentalist’ with any sort of actual education knows the risks of a dead forest and the benefits of harvesting it, both for people and for flora. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462.md?page=2)