# Thanks AGW deniers! We were getting tired of all those trees! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462 "2012-06-27T14:22:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/81 "2012-06-28T05:12:45Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I’ll set the Earth’s thermostat if you want. > > What is that perfect temperature it is supposed to be again? :rolleyes: That ain’t even straw, it’s just moldy hay with dung in it. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/82 "2012-06-28T12:04:33Z")
I doubt that the fires have anything to do with AGW. Its more a case of periodic drought in the American Southwest-we may be entering a phase similar to that of AD 1300-1400 (when the cliff dwellings, Chaco Canyon, etc. were abandoned). That, and the propensity of people to move into forested areas…and the (intentional suppression of small fires). The deadwood builds up, then you have a massive fire. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/83 "2012-06-28T15:16:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And to be sincere, I’m more thinking about the economical benefits of being leader in a technological field that’s going to become of major importance… Economic Benefits? Like footing the cost of development? Primary adopters will pay far more per MW in development and infrastructure costs than secondary and tertiary adopters will. France would be wise to let Germany pave the way and foot the bill and then adopt the technology and distribution systems once they have been fully developed and proven in the field on such a large scale. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/84 "2012-06-28T16:24:38Z")
re: solar **Gigo** ’s article suggests solar is currently cost-competitive with coal generation, and will halve again in price within 10 years. So at some point it becomes cheaper than natural gas, or anything available. Look at the boom in natural gas- the fuel is cheap and everyone wants to drill it. If you are competing with gas-drillers and solar costs half, I don’t see why it can’t receive massive investment, which would have a feedback-loop effect in the industry, which could lead to an industrial tipping point… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/85 "2012-06-28T16:45:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are not too far on the “not a very smart guy” and no, he is not reasonable, first he was a true alarmist that was not taken seriously by climate scientists, now that he has found that his alarmism has not panned out he is attempting to ingratiate with serious scientists, it has been a failure too. > > [http://climatecrocks.com/2012/04/30/scott-mandia-on-lovelock-nothing-burger/](http://climatecrocks.com/2012/04/30/scott-mandia-on-lovelock-nothing-burger/) > Duh indeed, I wish I had a dollar for any one that has insinuated or said before that it is religion what is used to get this global warming issue going, as usual it is a peculiar “religion” the one that actually uses evidence to arrive to conclusions, I would call it science, but that is just me. Like all religions, you are infatuated with what you know and _think_ you know (often confusing the two), and greatly ignore the scale of the amount of information you do not know and might not ever be able to know. That and the evangelical-like certitude you display in every discussion you (singular and plural) enter into. That’s a fact, Preacher. And tell me, Preacher, why in the world should I accept your position over Lovelock’s? Can you share your CV so I can make an assessment? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/86 "2012-06-28T16:47:49Z")
Magellan tries so hard. That’s almost respectable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/87 "2012-06-28T17:07:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And tell me, Preacher, why in the world should I accept your position over Lovelock’s? [Lovelock](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lovelock) proposed the [Gaia hypothesis.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gaia) Make what you will of that. I call it [woo](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Woo). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/88 "2012-06-28T17:10:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Like all religions, you are infatuated with what you know and _think_ you know (often confusing the two), and greatly ignore the scale of the amount of information you do not know and might not ever be able to know. That and the evangelical-like certitude you display in every discussion you (singular and plural) enter into. > > That’s a fact, Preacher. > > And tell me, Preacher, why in the world should I accept your position over Lovelock’s? Can you share your CV so I can make an assessment? You are really retarded if you think my position means a lot, what I consider here is the evidence that we get from science, science that as been pointed out even the real skeptics acknowledge, after he retired Lovelock only has **opinions** , he was wrong on the levels of damage we could expect, he is wrong now by assuming that everything will be hunky dory now. **What I do know** is that usually retarded ideas like “Lovelock is now against AGW, this is a bomb shell” are considered to be a great deal only in retarded and unscientific circles like Watts up With That, in scientific circles Lovelock was not taken seriously. > **[RealClimate: James Lovelock’s Gloomy Vision](https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/02/james-lovelocks-gloomy-vision/)** > > RealClimate: James Lovelock, renegade Earth scientist and creator of the Gaia hypothesis, has written a gloomy new book called “Revenge of Gaia”, in which he argues that we should be stashing survival manuals, printed on good old-fashioned paper, in... And now that he is jumping from one extreme to another he is still outside of what the evidence is showing. So, here is the huge problem with your line of thinking, someone told you before that Lovelock was the beesnees, whoever source told you that was bananas, and they are even more idiotic now for trying to pass a has been as the purveyor of truth; as usual, I expect that you will find more reasons to trow vitriol at me instead of the ones that misled you all this time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/89 "2012-06-28T17:22:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Like all religions, you are infatuated with what you know and _think_ you know (often confusing the two), and greatly ignore the scale of the amount of information you do not know and might not ever be able to know. This bit also needs the input of Dr. Alley (did I mention he is a Republican?) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/a69_owv4jEE/maxresdefault.jpg ""We don't know enough..." How to talk to an OSTRICH") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69_owv4jEE) > [@](#): > > It’s true that Earth’s a massive jigsaw puzzle, with lots of pieces intricately fitting together. But, Richard Alley argues, we already know enough to see the Big Picture. The missing pieces of scientific understanding - exactly how clouds work, how extreme weather will change with global warming - are important, but we can already see how Earth works. No religion there. There is very little evidence to support your idea that the scale prevents science from progressing, the big picture shows that the pieces of the puzzle that scientists know and have are more than enough for them to say that there is a problem and we need to change to take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/90 "2012-06-28T17:36:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You have to see a real threat and understand it, and be able to project into the future in a cost to benefits ratio in order to get a society like the US on board. Nicholas Stern attempted this in 2006, writing the Stern review. As far as I recall, he held that continuing current rates of using fossil fuels would lead to far more costs further on than subsidising sustainable forms of energy. Tragedy of the commons, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/91 "2012-06-28T17:49:24Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I doubt that the fires have anything to do with AGW. Certainly AGW can’t directly _cause_ a particular forest fire, any more than it can directly cause a particular hurricane. The climatic and environmental conditions that lead to forest fires, hurricanes, etc., are there already; what determines when and how a particular event occurs is mostly just random chance. However, AGW can certainly make the overall climatic and environmental conditions **more** conducive to forest fires. Which is exactly what climate scientists think is happening. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Its more a case of periodic drought in the American Southwest-we may be entering a phase similar to that of AD 1300-1400 (when the cliff dwellings, Chaco Canyon, etc. were abandoned). Why would you think that? Seriously, why? We have an observed change in local climate in the American Southwest (increased drought and heat) that the vast majority of climate scientists think is primarily caused by anthropogenic changes in the atmosphere (AGW). So what’s inspiring you to pull out of your ass an alternative hypothesis about “periodic drought” and confidently assert that that’s a more likely explanation of the observed change than the explanation that scientists are proposing? Sheesh. There are plenty of scientific phenomena whose causes aren’t thoroughly understood yet, but only in the case of climate phenomena do otherwise intelligent laypeople seem to consider themselves so irrationally entitled to confidently contradict the findings of mainstream science. For instance, entomologists studying the recent epidemic of honeybee colony collapse disorder currently (though still tentatively) ascribe it to a combination of factors including crop pesticides, pathogens and parasites. If I, a non-entomologist, came along and declared _“I doubt the colony collapse disorder has anything to do with those factors. It’s more a case of bird flycatcher species massively increasing their bee predation”_, reasonable people would look at me as though I had two heads, and rightly so. But climate change deniers seem to think they have some kind of approved license to bullshit. I don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/92 "2012-06-28T18:22:44Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Might or might not surprise me, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it made earthquakes more likely, as changing temperature expands the rock in a way that it hasn’t experienced in millennia. Huh. Seriously? Want to show your work on this a little… maybe how much the temperature has changed, how deep the change will have conducted into the Earth’s crust over a few decades, maybe a quick look at the thermal expansion coefficient of deep rock layers? 'Cos on the face of it it’s sounding about as plausible as the claim that the full Moon brings on attacks of gout because of the increased tidal effect on human body fluids. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/93 "2012-06-28T18:30:57Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Huh. Seriously? Want to show your work on this a little… maybe how much the temperature has changed, how deep the change will have conducted into the Earth’s crust over a few decades, maybe a quick look at the thermal expansion coefficient of deep rock layers? 'Cos on the face of it it’s sounding about as plausible as the claim that the full Moon brings on attacks of gout because of the increased tidal effect on human body fluids. Yeah, on that I think \*\*Ludovic \*\*may not have it right regarding earthquakes, Volcano eruptions though.. [http://news.discovery.com/earth/will-global-warming-make-icelands-volcanoes-angry.html](http://news.discovery.com/earth/will-global-warming-make-icelands-volcanoes-angry.html) > [@](#): > > But Hugh Tuffen of Lancaster University in the United Kingdom thinks it might not be long before melting glaciers on volcanoes in places like the Andes mountains, North America’s Cascades, Alaska’s Aleutian Islands – and yes, even Iceland – could release enough pressure from supercharged magma chambers to increase the frequency and intensity of volcanic eruptions. > > In short: our greenhouse gas-emitting habits will eventually increase Earth’s volcanic activity. Still, I do think more research is needed on that front to be more sure about that. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/94 "2012-06-29T18:29:18Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Economic Benefits? Like footing the cost of development?. I was thinking of know-how, patents, existing production lines, etc… giving you a head start in what I think will be a major market in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/95 "2012-06-29T20:11:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This bit also needs the input of Dr. Alley (did I mention he is a Republican?) > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69\_owv4jEE&feature=relmfu](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69_owv4jEE&feature=relmfu) > > No religion there. > > There is very little evidence to support your idea that the scale prevents science from progressing, the big picture shows that the pieces of the puzzle that scientists know and have are more than enough for them to say that there is a problem and we need to change to take care of it. Dr. Lovelock seems to disagree. As I asked, can you supply your credentials so I can determine how much weight I should give your opinion over his? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/96 "2012-06-29T20:42:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Dr. Lovelock seems to disagree. As I asked, can you supply your credentials so I can determine how much weight I should give your opinion over his? You are a moron indeed, the point here is that what you are doing is only shooting the messenger, I already referred you the experts that have weighted on the levels of respect that Lovelock has with other climate scientists, as usual my credential are not important in this case, so use logic for once. Your beef is with the climate scientists and many others, you are only insisting on putting down a poster on a message board, and the reason is clear, you are only willing to skip the science, as Lovelock is doing too now has he is not an expert in climate science and he has not published anything in scientific journals in ages. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/97 "2012-06-30T01:09:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually the latest polls do show that most Americans agree in doing something… I sincerely apologize if this is a threadcrap, but The Onion… _[http://www.theonion.com/articles/hottest-12-months-on-record,28651/](http://www.theonion.com/articles/hottest-12-months-on-record,28651/)_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/98 "2012-06-30T01:28:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > \Oh, as far as what I’d do if I had the power? Nuclear energy and lots of it. Develop wind and solar where it makes sense. Continue to push for R&D for various alternatives for fossil fuels wrt personal transport as well as our logistics system. Modernize our power infrastructure. A new emphasis on manned and unmanned space exploration. Curvacious females fanning me with palm fronds while peeling me grapes and… > > :smack:…:smack::smack::smack: Don’t forget anything that might help wean Americans off the automobile, as well as improving our daily quality-of-life in countless ways (see [_Asphalt Nation,_](http://www.amazon.com/Asphalt-Nation-Automobile-Took-America/dp/0520216202) by Jane Holtz Kay) – New Urbanist planning-reforms, walkable high-density mixed-use neighborhoods, bulldozing the exurban sprawlscape, a whole lot more fixed-rail mass transit, light rail, streetcars, a national high-speed rail network, a greatly improved and expanded network of commuter rail and conventional inter-city rail, no town or neighborhood in America left rail-inaccessible, myself as Supreme Absolute God-Emperor with unlimited _droit du seigneur_ . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/99 "2012-06-30T01:41:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This bit also needs the input of Dr. Alley (did I mention he is a Republican?) > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69\_owv4jEE&feature=relmfu](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69_owv4jEE&feature=relmfu) > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s true that Earth’s a massive jigsaw puzzle, with lots of pieces intricately fitting together. But, Richard Alley argues, we already know enough to see the Big Picture. The missing pieces of scientific understanding - exactly how clouds work, how extreme weather will change with global warming - are important, but we can already see how Earth works. > > No religion there. > > There is very little evidence to support your idea that the scale prevents science from progressing, the big picture shows that the pieces of the puzzle that scientists know and have are more than enough for them to say that there is a problem and we need to change to take care of it. 😕 There’s still a scientific mystery as to how **clouds** work?! Was I lied to in junior high school?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462/100 "2012-06-30T01:44:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are really retarded if you think my position means a lot, what I consider here is the evidence that we get from science, science that as been pointed out even the real skeptics acknowledge, after he retired Lovelock only has **opinions** , he was wrong on the levels of damage we could expect, he is wrong now by assuming that everything will be hunky dory now. > [@magellan01](#): > > Dr. Lovelock seems to disagree. As I asked, can you supply your credentials so I can determine how much weight I should give your opinion over his? :rolleyes::dubious: Do you really want to be one of our **NDD/brazil84** -style Dopetards who pretends to miss a point no matter how often and clearly it’s posted in direct response to his own posts?! Don’t [PRATT,](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PRATT) please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-agw-deniers-we-were-getting-tired-of-all-those-trees/626462.md?page=6)