# Thanks lissener, maybe I should just quit the SDMB altogether **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357 "2003-10-30T01:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/181 "2003-10-31T20:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\* . . .what would want to make him to start a thread baiting these bigots? . . . \*\* The only thread I started “baiting the bigots” was the “suck my dick” thread, which was A) obviously intended to be outrageous and hyperbolic, and B) closed as a “joke thread.” If that’s all you got on me, well, suck my dick. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/182 "2003-10-31T20:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **Yeah, some of my best friends are faggots. :rolleyes:** how do they feel about you stabbing them in the back right now? > [@](#): > > Just because I won’t let YOU dictate the terms of this debate? If there’s any of my ass left over after Mr. B is done with it, it has your name on it. \*\* This is a debate? I thought it was just you tossing shit around like an epileptic chimp. I’d hate to see what you call a trainwreck. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/183 "2003-10-31T20:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Well, maybe I can shed some light on why this is not correct. \*\* Refusing to engage people that are morally and ethically bankrupt is perfectly correct. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/184 "2003-10-31T20:28:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alice\_in\_wonderland \* > \*\* > Guess what? It doesn’t mater. If I call her an idiot or try to educate her about her ignorance, she persists with her bigoted behaviour. She is not worth my time. If that means I’m spewing crap, so be it. > > Do you see my point? At all? \*\* That is different, as you are just cutting off comminication, not going to her work, and throwing vomit in her office yelling “BIGOT!” then throwing vomit on people passing by going “What’s going on?” and yelling “BIGOT!” at them, then throwing vomit on random people and people saying “stop throwing the vomit, it accomplishes nothing!” And you respond with “All those against vomit throwing are BIGOTS!!!” That is what **lissenner** is doing. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/185 "2003-10-31T20:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > **. . . Acting like this accomplishes nothing of value and i would not waste my time with it. . . .** Hello, is this thing on? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*. . . . **lissener** ’s posts in this thread are why there will NOT be gay marriage for another 50 years, idiots like him make the swing people pissed off enough they’ll vote it down out of spite. . . . \*\* Asshole bigot homophobe. What were you, a Mississippi sheriff in a past life? You’re like, Mad-Libbing classic racist bigot talk with different nouns, adapting it to homos. “The blacks would get more respect if they acted more respectfully. That’s what happens when people don’t know their place. Hell, I’d be on their side if they weren’t so damned uppity about their ‘rights’ all the time.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/186 "2003-10-31T20:48:24Z")
Nice, **lissener**. You have indeed established that behaving like an asshole doesn’t hurt other people who are advocating your cause: by comparing this argument to the argument made by Mississippi sherriffs, you’ve got an airtight case. Of course, you could also look at how the Sierra Club responds to Earth First!ers who totally alienate logging communities instead of working with them, or you could look at the difficult relationship between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, or you could look at how people on the fence about feminism often look at the words of [a few frothing feminists](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=217790&perpage=50&pagenumber=6) to conclude that feminists are wacky. Be crazy and assholish to homophobes if you must, but please – for the sake of people who ARE trying to do the education still, refrain from throwing shit at people who might still be convinced. You don’t need to educate them yourself, but you could at least get out of the way of people who ARE willing to educate them. To do otherwise is to undermine yourself, in the same way that Robin Morgan has undermined intelligent, persuasive feminists. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/187 "2003-10-31T20:56:39Z")
Yeah, I should get out of the way. I should stop launching Pit threads about myself. Oh . . . wait . . . ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/188 "2003-10-31T21:00:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alice\_in\_wonderland \* > \*\*And FWIW, I don’t consider spewing hateful, crap civil behaviour, irrespective of how politely it’s worded. > > If someone says to me, in a calm and even tone that “In their humble opinion, gays are all going to burn in hell because of their sins.”, they’re not being civil - they’re being an asshole. I will gladly tell them as much. \*\* Sure. And if you then rant and rave and go off on how they are evil irrational close minded bigots and worthless human beings and whatnot, rather than yourself responding in a reasonable tone, then they’re not the only ones at whom your charge can be reasonably levelled. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/189 "2003-10-31T21:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > \*\*. . . And if you then rant and rave and go off on how they are evil . . . \*\* Cite? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > **. . . and worthless human beings** Cite? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/190 "2003-10-31T21:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > \*\*Sure. And if you then rant and rave and go off on how they are evil irrational close minded bigots and worthless human beings and whatnot, rather than yourself responding in a reasonable tone, then they’re not the only ones at whom your charge can be reasonably levelled. \*\* But **lissener** _HASN’T_ ranted and raved. He has dismissed these people as homophobes. As far as I’m concerned, he is refusing to engage them. Good for him. It’s not his job to be a crusader for gay rights, just because he’s gay, and he’s not obligated to acknowledge hateful, ignorant comments with a well thought out response. I think “You’re an asshole homophobe.” is a perfectly acceptable response to many of the comments I’ve seen directed at **lissener**. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/191 "2003-10-31T21:25:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Yeah, I should get out of the way. I should stop launching Pit threads about myself. > > Oh . . . wait . . . \*\* That’s true; you didn’t start this thread. However, I’m not seeing you leaving much room in it for anyone on your side to come in and educate the homophobes in it; instead, I’m seeing you doing your best to be so offensive to them that they’ll stop reading the thread. That’s gonna make it hard for other people to educate them. Sure, this thread doesn’t need to be about education – but I’ve gotten the same over-vicious vibe from you in several other threads over the last week. Hell, I’m on your side, and I’m avoiding those threads now; if I were opposed to your viewpoint, there’s no way I’d hang out there and soak up the venom. And that means I wouldn’t be exposed to gay rights advocates who might convince me that there was a point to gay rights. I just think you’re hurting the people who are trying to do the hard work of education by being so vicious. It’s fine to ignore homophobes. I just have a problem with your willingness to attack people at the drop of a hat. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/192 "2003-10-31T21:39:06Z")
**Lissener** , I think what a number of people are trying to tell you here is that they would dearly love to stand alongside you in your struggle against discrimination; they _would_ but for one thing; you’re actively scaring them away; but it isn’t your homosexuality that scares them at all, it’s all the flailing and spitting. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/193 "2003-10-31T21:39:31Z")
Look. Daniel. I always give everyone, EVERYONE, the benefit of the doubt. The only time I let the rude loose is AFTER someone makes it clear that their prejudices are more important to them than actually learning a new perspective. I defy you find an example of anything else. I acknowledged being abrupt with Bippy; find me another one and I’ll acknowledge that too. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/194 "2003-10-31T21:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\ ***Lissener** , I think what a number of people are trying to tell you here is that they would dearly love to stand alongside you in your struggle against discrimination; they _would_ but for one thing; you’re actively scaring them away; but it isn’t your homosexuality that scares them at all, it’s all the flailing and spitting. \*\* That’s fine with me. BUt when they start saying that I’M the reason they’re homophobic, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/195 "2003-10-31T21:57:35Z")
Sure, **lissener**. After I’d made my position abundantly clear, you posted to me (in two different posts): > [@](#): > > And yes, what that means is this: if I tell you that for me, it was not a choice, your refusal to accept that at face value is to call me a liar. To refuse to accept it from the nearly total unanimity of everyone else who’s ever expressed themselves on the matter is to call everyone else a liar. If that’s what you have to do to cling to your “belief” that it’s a choice, that’s utterly irrational, and I will refuse to engage reasonably. > > The “you” was universal, not specific, unless of course you’d call me a liar for telling you, from the horse’s mouth as it were, that homosexuality is not a choice, no matter how complex its actual “source” might turn out to be. So even after I’ve made my position very clear, you persist in insinuating that I’m a homophobe. It comes across like, since I’m criticizing you, you’re wielding the threat of a nasty label against me in an effort to get me to shut up. Or what about, when I talked about the fluid nature of some folks’ sexuality to illustrate the point that if sexuality was genetically determined it was more complicated than an either/or proposition, [and you responded with](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=218704&highlight=resolved): > [@](#): > > Daniel, the fact that you know individuals who are unsure of their sexuality is utterly, utterly irrelevant. No one disputes that there’s a spectrum of sexual identity; your experiences with people who fall at various points along that spectrum do nothing to refute the genetic component of sexual identity. Further, no one disputes that there are societal pressures to proclaim or deny one’s sexuality, and that different people react to those pressures differently. Again, zero relevance in disproving the genetic component of sexual identity. That was not only insulting to me; it was also insulting to my friend and my relative whom I was talking about. I gave no sign that they were “unsure of their sexuality”; instead, I’d discussed how their sexuality had changed. That was the point where I said, “The hell with it,” and backed out of the current threads on sexuality in great debates. I grew up dealing with issues of androgyny; most women I’ve had relationships with have been bisexual; I’ve received more than one physical threat from a homophobe based on their perception that I was gay. I figure that I have an interesting if minor perspective to add to such threads. But when someone is so rude in dismissing my thoughts, it makes me unwilling to be in the thread – especially when it’s someone whom I figure is my rhetorical ally. I’d just ask you to be a bit more careful about whom you attack is all, and be careful about what you consider an attack. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/196 "2003-10-31T22:00:01Z")
**lissener** , you’ll note, if you read carefully, that word “if.” As in, hypothetical. Personally, I do think you’ve gone beyond the pall in this thread, but you indeed have failed to call anyone a worthless human being. Fortunately, I failed to say you had. > [@](#): > > **But lissener HASN’T ranted and raved** Now, ranting and raving… if you don’t see this thread as containing plenty of ranting and raving on his part, one of us fails to understand the meaning of the term. Perhaps it’s me. As an example, though, let’s consider the following exchange: **Tars** : **lissener** ’s behavior makes me inclined not to care much about gay rights. **lissener** : Homophobe! (parenthetical comment: we have now redefined homophobia to include apathy about the subject. Which is just stupid.) **Tars** : I am no such thing. In fact, I hang out with the gay crowd at times. (parenthetical comment #2: The entire idea that being friends with members of a group _and exhibiting no bigoted behavior about said people_ is _not_ an absolute defense against charges of being bigoted against that group just goes to show how irrational some people are.) _essentially the same sorts of crap ensues for some time_ **Tars** , further: **lissener** ’s tactics offend people and cause more problems than they solve. **lissener** : Asshole bigot homophobe! _insert gratuitous and baseless insinuation of racism, just for kicks_ NOW do you see some ranting and raving? There’s certainly a lack of logic and civility. No, I’m sorry: **lissener** is no pure innocent trying to make his way in a world bigoted against him, and unwilling to suffer fools gladly. He is, in fact, an asshole. So are those people bigoted against him, but that’s not an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/197 "2003-10-31T22:34:29Z")
Oh–you said IF. OK. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > \*\*. . . if you then rant and rave and go off on how they are evil irrational close minded bigots and worthless human beings and whatnot, rather than yourself responding in a reasonable tone, then they’re not the only ones at whom your charge can be reasonably levelled. \*\* If I had a prehensile neck, I could wear my ass for a hat. So it was entirely hypothetical: _If_ I “rant and rave and go off”–you don’t actually think I’m ranting and raving and going off? You were speaking metaphorically? I mean, with just those isolated words, “evil” and “worthless”? You know, g8r, at least be honest. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/198 "2003-10-31T22:57:29Z")
_smacks forehead_ Of course I think you’re ranting and raving. I even said so, in the previous post. _directs **lissener** ’s attention upwards about 20 lines_ I don’t think you’ve used the words “evil” and “worthless,” because I have two perfectly functional eyes. Is my point really that difficult to understand? Let me reiterate it then: 1. Confront civility with civility. 2. As bigotry is not civil, as you an **alice** point out, feel free to call a spade a spade. 3. Nevertheless, if one calls a spade not a spade but a bulldozer (under the assumption that if the ability to move a little earth is bad, the ability to move a lot is worse), one is being an asshole. That’s all there is to it. That you’re reading more than that into my words is perhaps understandable but also, as it turns out, incorrect. I trust we will have no further unfounded accusations of dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/199 "2003-10-31T22:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **. . . So even after I’ve made my position very clear, you persist in insinuating that I’m a homophobe. It comes across like, since I’m criticizing you, you’re wielding the threat of a nasty label against me in an effort to get me to shut up. . . .** I’m sorry; what is your position exactly? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **. . . Or what about, when I talked about the fluid nature of some folks’ sexuality . . . and you responded with [a post that] . . . was not only insulting to me; it was also insulting to my friend and my relative whom I was talking about. I gave no sign that they were “unsure of their sexuality”; instead, I’d discussed how their sexuality had changed. . . .** There sexuality didn’t change; there unsureness did. Nonetheless, I don’t see my response as disrespectful in the least– > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*. . . I’d just ask you to be a bit more careful about whom you attack is all, and be careful about what you consider an attack. > > Daniel \*\* –certainly not an attack. I don’t see either of those responses as attacks. Did those responses really leave you feeling _attacked_? ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/200 "2003-10-31T23:07:45Z")
I wanted to apologize to you listener, I was in a really bad mood the other day and I had read some posts wrong, I reviewed the thread and saw my mistake. :o Again, I’m sorry about my posts in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357.md?page=11)