# Thanks lissener, maybe I should just quit the SDMB altogether **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357 "2003-10-30T01:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/121 "2003-10-31T01:48:01Z")
Lissener: Acrimony aside it seems to me that your suggesting we should accept homosexual’s words that it’s not a choice is at odds with your behavior re: Conservatives. To refresh your memory you do not accept the word of conservatives regarding their beliefs and insist that they are either lying or deluding themselves. Now, I have no problem with homosexuality not being a choice. I’m sure it’s not. Why should somebody who beleives it is a choice accept the word when you do not accept that as a standard of proof through others? Next up, as regards to attacking “homophobes,” the problem as I’m sure you well know is confusing the label with the thing. Despite what you said earlier, you **are** nothing more than what you do. Lissener is not a homosexual, a male, or any of the other things that compromise your being of which you have no choice. You are nothing more than the sum of your choices, and the actions that follow. If you choose to be a jerk to anybody you choose to lable a homophobe, you lessen yourself. As my Daddy says “Your capacity to hurt and loathe others cannot but equal the the loathing and hatred you contain for yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/122 "2003-10-31T01:48:35Z")
…yes, **Mangetout** , it was. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/123 "2003-10-31T01:50:35Z")
In a nutshell, **JerseyDiamond** , I think (and I hope I’m not being presumptuous here) that \*\*Lissener and I have reached a state of near-agreement that, although it is _technically possible_ to regard homosexuality as a personal choice and not be a homophobe, it is simply the case that most (or possibly all) people with that view were actually driven to the _decision_ that it is a choice by their pre-existing homophobic prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/124 "2003-10-31T01:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*No, it is not logically possible the believe that homosexuality is a choice, in the face of all available information–anecdotal and otherwise–except in the sense that “anything is possible.” To cling to such an “opinion” is ludicrous and irrational, and can only be explained by an emotional inability to consider the truth. > \*\* Yes, it is logically possible to believe that homosexuality COULD be a choice but you’re closing your mind and tirade to remove that from any conversation without calling it homophobia. I’ve got a friend that was married to a woman and after 12 years of being married, his wife ended it and he then came out. I’ve got another that came out as a lesbian when she was thirteen and is now happily married to a guy and has 4 kids. I’ve chosen to live my life as a gay male. I do believe I was born gay and have no attraction to the opposite sex. I’m pretty sure I was born this way and am happy as I am. Sexuality isn’t as black and white as you make it and I don’t think you have all of the answers, knowledge, brain power, or ability to scramble to the top of the average intelligence heap to see out on the information horizon with your myopic vision. ---
**Author:** ![bojon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@bojon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bojon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/125 "2003-10-31T01:56:27Z")
**LISSENER,…\>** I am a bit apathetic to you, and your beliefs. You will not survive the game of LIFE. Enjoy the freedoms that are granted you in this life. Why do you have so much hatred for folks that do not share you’re lifestyle? It is a lifestyle, no corraborating research has been done to understand why you get moist looking at hairy asses when you are porking your S.O. …I allow myslf to looking and fantisizing about women who are older than my oldest niece, or younger than my Mother… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/126 "2003-10-31T02:03:28Z")
Speaking of hairy assholes… ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/127 "2003-10-31T02:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > In my mind, much of what is wrong with organized religion is that it discourages many/most of its adherents from thinking for themselves. Garbage in, garbage out. > > Being nonreligious and straight myself, I find the above quote as lame as an excuse can get. Especially in light of the fact that **Res** appears to be a bright guy, quite capable of making his own decisions based on the available facts. The most salient one amongst them is that gays are simply _people_, like anyone else. Full stop. It seems to me that **Res** actually _is_ thinking for himself. He _is_ questioning these things. Shouldn’t he at least be given credit for that? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/128 "2003-10-31T02:12:06Z")
Ooops, I noticed **Ryle Dup** raised this question way back on the first page, and I wanted to address it: > [@](#): > > You say even theological proof wouldn’t convince you not to go the road of adoption, and this is really sad to hear. Do you really mean that you follow your church for everything in your life like this? Why do you let the church make your decisions for you? Please reread my earlier post: I said that my fiancee and I have agreed to adopt in the event that we couldn’t have children. What I said is that we wouldn’t use an artificial method of conception, at least one which the Church decided was illicit. I hope my second and subsequent posts make this clearer: we’re not simply asking “how high” when the Church says “jump;” rather, we investigate the issues to determine why the Church says what it does. I think it’s fair to say that we presume that what the Church says is correct, since they’ve been playing the theology game for hundreds of years longer than we have. This is based on a lot of prayer and thoughtful consideration, however: as Christians, we’re concerned about the state of our souls, and REALLY don’t want to do anything to mess them up. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/129 "2003-10-31T02:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*In a nutshell, **JerseyDiamond** , I think (and I hope I’m not being presumptuous here) that \*\*Lissener and I have reached a state of near-agreement that, although it is _technically possible_ to regard homosexuality as a personal choice and not be a homophobe, it is simply the case that most (or possibly all) people with that view were actually driven to the _decision_ that it is a choice by their pre-existing homophobic prejudices. \*\* Man that’s a horrible sentence. I had to read it 3 times. lol Anyway, so being that I think it is a choice, I am a homophobe, right? So, can thinking that, and only thinking that make someone a homophobe, or does there have to be more to it? I am just trying to understand what gays think makes a homophobe: a little of this, a little of that, etc. It is so commonly said around here so I just wanted to know. Thanks, JD ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/130 "2003-10-31T02:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Speaking of hairy assholes… \*\* What an excellent segue! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/131 "2003-10-31T04:31:32Z")
Is it just me, or is **lissener** rapidly becoming the new _Kirkland_\*? Shut the FUCK up, **lissener**! Ever hear of the boy who cried wolf? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/132 "2003-10-31T04:38:14Z")
I always have trouble with the “boy who cried wolf.” Since the boy who cried wolf ends up getting eaten by a wolf, didn’t this validate his position? …or am I the only one who sees that irony? I always picture the epilogue. > [@](#): > > …And all the townspeople gathered around the mutilated corpse of the boy who cried wolf. They looked at the gaping wounds, the teeth marks the chewed marrow. They observed the wolf hairs on the corpse and they noticed the wolfprints leading to and from the body. > > Suddenly the village elder raises his hand, and a hush descends amongst the townsfolk… > > “Well, shit!” says the elder. “I guess he was right, after all.” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/133 "2003-10-31T05:53:48Z")
NB: Because **ResIpsaLoquitur** posted and announced some time off, I respectfully reserved this post. > [@](#): > > _by ResIpsaLoquitur_ [emphasis mine] > > My fiancee and I have both agreed not to do so, however. **We’ll adopt and deal with the pain.** Our reasoning, again, is that we don’t want to be defiant–and moreso, we don’t want to be sinning. I’ve actually looked over the reasoning behind the church’s policy on assisted reproduction, and to me, logically and theologically, it makes sense. I’d still be sad if I couldn’t have my own kids. I’d also be sad if I sinned. Since your OP suggests your departure from the Board, I think it’s very important to interject here. Forgive me for posting something to which you are presently incapable of an answer, but you really opened up with that last one. That’s commendable. I’m a little surprised by your attitude toward the _possibility_ of adoption for you and your _future_ wife, though; I hope it was just an off-hand comment. Unlike you, I’m not particularly devout, but I would feel a definite galvanizing force from _my_ god, should it ever strike me sterile. Your statement about “the pain of adoption” has me puzzled. It seems a little extreme. 😕 **lissener** : you’re simply making it easier for homophobes to crouch in the dark behind a hanging Carhartt. Your rants make the debates fractious; your ubiquity makes them angry. Please keep in mind that when a man feels “it move” during an scene or encounter about which he’s been trained to feel revulsion, there’s a bitter conflict. I suspect that inner revulsion is part of what fuels homophobia. An analogy: rubbing _The Bell Curve_ in my face will never make me think that whites are smarter than blacks. In fact, I’m never going to believe that. Does it make my viewpoint less valuable? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/134 "2003-10-31T08:36:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > **Anyway, so being that I think it is a choice, I am a homophobe, right?** Not necessarily (in my view); _why_ do you think it is a choice? > [@](#): > > **So, can thinking that, and only thinking that make someone a homophobe, or does there have to be more to it?** No, if the sole thought in your head is “it is a choice”, that doesn’t make you a homophobe; however if you arrived at the decision that it is a choice because of some pre-existing opinion about homosexuality being a bad thing, then you are already a homophobe and the opinion that it is a choice is incidental. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/135 "2003-10-31T08:38:44Z")
Coding suckosity - what is the matter with me lately? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/136 "2003-10-31T08:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Ignoring overwhelming evidence because of personal prejudice is irrational. \*\* You know what? You are absolutely right. It IS irrational. > [@](#): > > \*\*It is exactly contempt, and it is born of fear. Homophobe is the only word to describe bone’s position. \*\* Contempt? Yeah, maybe. Born out of fear? Absolutely. But fear of what? Fear of homosexuals? Maybe. Fear of you, personally? Unlikely. (I don’t know, you might be a scary guy) Yes, it’s prejudice. IMO, it’s more likely learned behaviour and attitudes. Either taught by their parents, their peers, their church… They are part of the belief system, Changing these attitudes and behaviors can be a scary thing and it will NOT happen overnight, overwhelming evidence or not. You want to call someone a homophobe because they believed their church? Their parents? Hell, a good part of the society? That’s up to you. But I submit that someone who holds these beliefs _CAN_ change. Discussion and argument can help with their enlightenment. Condemnation cannot. People can change, their ignorance can be fought and defeated. But the approach is important. As **Mr B** points out, your approach may be counter-productive to our stated goal. **Resa** is trying to open his mind up to new possibilities. This should be encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/137 "2003-10-31T13:03:47Z")
Res > [@](#): > > I am, of course, just as frustrated as the rest of you: I wish God would make a personal appearance and say “Look, idiots, THIS is what I meant.” But that’s exactly what He did. [sub]Please see my post to you on page 1.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/138 "2003-10-31T14:21:26Z")
Not to get too far off-track… Res said, “I, for one, will continue to study the issue further. I really will. I want to reclarify that this is largely how I study religious issues that I don’t understand or don’t have an answer to–” The thing of it is, is that this is a huge, non-religious issue for so many. The inequalities that Lissener is (rightfully) ranting about affect those that DON’T have religious convictions, as well. Non-religious people can’t simply step back from the church and no longer be bothered by this issue. It has infiltrated our government as well. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/139 "2003-10-31T14:33:25Z")
I think your point is important, Kalhoun, and goes to the heart of how I differentiate morality and ethics. Morality is that which is between a man and his God (if he is a theist) or a man and his conscience (if he is an atheist). But ethics is that which is between a man and his fellow men. No matter what the moral implications of homosexuality, homosexuals are entitled to the same rights as anyone — including the right to pursue their own happiness in their own way. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357/140 "2003-10-31T15:34:46Z")
**Lib** makes an important point which I feel can’t be emphasised often enough; as long as an action is ethically neutral or positive, it is no legitimate business of anyone (except perhaps any authorities to which the individual willingly submits) other than the person performing it, even if, by the definition of another individual, the action is the most morally depraved thing imaginable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-lissener-maybe-i-should-just-quit-the-sdmb-altogether/210357.md?page=8)