# Thanks Pres. Bush for the opportunity to restore wetlands and marshes in Mesopotamia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559 "2003-04-18T15:19:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/1 "2003-04-18T15:19:51Z")
Here’s a chance for ecology-minded posters to express their [appreciation to the President for overthrowing a regime that destroyed the largest wetland in the Middle East. Victory over Saddam has created a possibility of restoring these wetlands.](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/07/MN293104.DTL&type=science) > [@](#): > > **A dream of restoring Iraq’s great marshes – Wetlands destroyed by Hussein could thrive again** > > There could be an unexpected beneficiary of the war in Iraq: the environment. > > More specifically, the late, great Mesopotamian marshes – a decade ago, the largest wetland by far in the Middle East, and a site considered by many religious scholars as the inspiration for the Garden of Eden in the Bible and Koran… > > The marsh Arabs lived in singular harmony with their watery environment, building elegant boats and elaborate houses out of reeds. > > But Hussein considered the swamps a haven for Shiite opponents of his regime. So in the mid-1990s, he drained the marshes, broadcast pesticides to kill the fish and wildlife, and attacked the villages of the ma’dan. Today, the once verdant network of reed beds and waterways is mostly a sere and lifeless plain… > > “Everyone is harping about Saddam’s chemical, biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction,” said Alwash, “but here he used water as a mass destruction weapon. He used it to destroy a culture that has lasted 5,000 years. And I’m afraid it has made me somewhat cynical that the international community stood by and did nothing while it was happening.” > > **A TREMENDOUS CATASTROPHE** > Ecological scientists are in general accord with Alwash that the destruction of the marshes was a catastrophe of global significance… > > The paper could well become a blueprint of great significance. If U.S. and British forces win the war as expected, some conservationists say it could provide a remarkable opportunity – the chance to restore the natural splendor of the Mesopotamian marshes. If successful, such a project could be the greatest single wetland restoration in the history of the world… > > “It took 50 years to destroy 95 percent of the wetlands in California, but it took only about two years to obliterate the Mesopotamian marshes,” Stevens said. “(Hussein) obliterated one of the biologically richest places on Earth, and destroyed a unique and ancient culture.” ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/2 "2003-04-18T15:38:12Z")
. . . while Bush gave vandals and theives the opportunity to destroy and steal irreplaceable cultural resources in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/3 "2003-04-18T15:40:03Z")
This is in the Pit why? ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/4 "2003-04-18T15:42:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*This is in the Pit why? \*\* 'Cause it’s **december**. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/5 "2003-04-18T15:44:23Z")
Thank Gop! Now there was a valid reason to invade Iraq! No WMDs, but wetland restorations. These neocons are “neo” for a whole bunch of different reasons than I thought: they care about the welfare of people not themselves, they care about the environment. I’m switching parties! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/6 "2003-04-18T15:45:32Z")
And while we’re at it, let’s thank President Bush for jump-starting urban renewal in Iraq, by having cleared Baghdad of numerous structures no longer needed by the previous government. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/7 "2003-04-18T15:45:52Z")
I hear Rumsfeld is going to be on _Meet the Press_ this week to talk about the Houston problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/8 "2003-04-18T15:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > “Everyone is harping about Saddam’s chemical, biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction,” said Alwash, “but here he used water as a mass destruction weapon. He used it to destroy a culture that has lasted 5,000 years. And I’m afraid it has made me somewhat cynical that the international community stood by and did nothing while it was happening.” **Sua Sponte** told me that Hussein used WMD against the marsh Arabs after 1991. Here, this doesn’t seem to be the case. What is the truth? Did Hussein “gas his own people” at any time other than the Kurds before gulf war I? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/9 "2003-04-18T15:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > “It took 50 years to destroy 95 percent of the wetlands in California, but it took only about two years to obliterate the Mesopotamian marsh” well, apparently Californians aren’t as efficient as Iraq **december** - I don’t recall anyone advocating that SH wasn’t a totally horrible person, destroyer of resources, killer of his own people, etc etc etc. Nor did anyone suggest that the Iraqi people wouldn’t be better off w/o him. or Iraq itself. **some** folks questioned the wisdom and ‘rightness’ of this war, despite the fact there would be some excellent consequences from SH not being in power. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/10 "2003-04-18T15:58:57Z")
With each thread like this, I become a little more cynical. It is becoming abundantly clear that the folks that are in favor of this war are grasping at straws to justify the continued stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/11 "2003-04-18T16:06:03Z")
Well, **Binarydrone** , I have no argument with your cynical response, but for me, I’m just going to laugh my ass off at the ridiculous idea that Iraqi marshes register in the brain of the beloved President George III. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/12 "2003-04-18T16:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\*With each thread like this, I become a little more cynical. It is becoming abundantly clear that the folks that are in favor of this war are grasping at straws to justify the continued stupidity. \*\* Heh. **december**!= “folks that are in favor of this war.” Think of him as the pro-war equivalent of the “It’s all about oil! Down with global capitalism!” crowd on the anti side. Although, now that I think about it, Jeb Bush was a big force pushing Clinton into the big program to protect the Florida swamp, which G.W. has continued. Maybe the Bush family loves mosquitos? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/13 "2003-04-18T16:39:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > **some** folks questioned the wisdom and ‘rightness’ of this war, despite the fact there would be some excellent consequences from SH not being in power. Before the war I heard no pro-war person advocate it because it would lead to improved riparian ecological systems. Nor did I hear anyone oppose the war because an important museum would be looted. Still, should we not cheer unexpected good consequences, just as we complain about unexected bad consequences? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/14 "2003-04-18T17:07:58Z")
It’s a shame that Interior Secretary Gale Norton is prevented from managing those wetlands. Then she could kill off the last dugongs like she did [the salmon](http://www.amrivers.org/mostendangered/klamathupdate.htm) in the [Klamath River](http://www.stopfedlandgrab.org/norton.html). It’s hypocrisy of the most insulting sort to attempt to give the Republican party some sort of credit for arresting an environmental disaster in Iraq when they are actively perpetrating dozens of them here in the United States. Keep looking, though. You guys will find a reason for fighting that war sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/15 "2003-04-18T17:07:59Z")
Actually, the administration was warned repeatedly by archaeologists and others that the National Museum and other sites would be in dire peril. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/16 "2003-04-18T17:13:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5 time champ \* > \*\*. . . while Bush gave vandals and theives the opportunity to destroy and steal irreplaceable cultural resources in Iraq. \*\* Don’t be so hard on Uday. The stuff was rightly his. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/17 "2003-04-18T17:31:39Z")
I seriously doubt _remdiating the wetlands of the Tigris-Euphrates watershed_ is even on the Bush’s Iraq reconstruction list? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/18 "2003-04-18T17:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > \*\*Well, **Binarydrone** , I have no argument with your cynical response, but for me, I’m just going to laugh my ass off at the ridiculous idea that Iraqi marshes register in the brain of the beloved President George III. \*\* Me,as well. Every time I hear the ecology mentioned in the USA, the phrase “those damned liberals” isn’t far away. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/19 "2003-04-18T17:44:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by december_ > Still, should we not cheer unexpected good consequences, just as we complain about unexected bad consequences? Nope. This is a bad idea. I work in restoration, and I don’t think that there’s any feasible project here. In the preliminary analysis of any restoration project, you have to look at what’s called the “capacity” of the area. The capacity is sort of an idealized concept of how much better you can make the wetland with your project. Everything that we do within the areas, near the wetland area, and in the watershed that drains to the wetland area affects the capacity. Most wetlands near areas that we’ve developed can’t be restored to pristine condition - the capacity analysis is a tool that helps us decide how much work we _can_ do, and how much benefit we can get out of the money we spend. Wetland restoration is not a one-time deal. It’s more analogous to building a road - you put a lot of capital and work into constructing a highway, and the majority of the money and effort is expended on the front end. But you still have to maintain it - the road needs to be resurfaced sometimes, potholes need to be filled, the right-of-way needs to be cleared periodically of vegetation that can obstruct traffic, load limits have to be observed, etc. If the road isn’t maintained, then it pretty quicly becomes something less than a road - still usable as a transportation corridor, but with limits. Maybe it’s not suitable anymore for all vehicles, or not passable during every season. It’s better than going overland, but not by much. The same thing happens to a restoration project. If we completely restore a wetland (creating a meandering low-flow channel, reestablishing native vegetation, reestablishing the natural drainage patterns both to and from the area, recreating the natural sediment load and water quality entering the wetland, and reestablishing native wildlife in the area), but then don’t change any of the land management patterns around the wetland, we’ve just wasted a whole lot of money on a project that will be around for a few years, but eventually will return to what it was before the restoration. In order for a restoration project to be succesful, land management _must_ be a part of the design, and it has to be monitored and enforced. To do this in Iraq during the rebuilding that has to go on there would be incredibly counterproductive. In the U.S., we can sell people on the idea of restoring wetlands because their basic needs have been met. In Iraq, there’s no way we could say to anyone, “yes, I know that’s the shortest way, but you can’t put a road there because we want to make it back into a swamp.” Bad science, bad investment, and bad public relations. If the administration really wants to look like it’s doing something for the environment, maybe it could restore some of my funding sources that have been decimated during the last two years. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559/20 "2003-04-18T17:54:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enginerd \* > \*\*Nope. This is a bad idea. I work in restoration, and I don’t think that there’s any feasible project here. > > In the preliminary analysis of any restoration project, you have to look at what’s called the “capacity” of the area. The capacity is sort of an idealized concept of how much better you can make the wetland with your project. Everything that we do within the areas, near the wetland area, and in the watershed that drains to the wetland area affects the capacity. Most wetlands near areas that we’ve developed can’t be restored to pristine condition - the capacity analysis is a tool that helps us decide how much work we _can_ do, and how much benefit we can get out of the money we spend. > > Wetland restoration is not a one-time deal. It’s more analogous to building a road - you put a lot of capital and work into constructing a highway, and the majority of the money and effort is expended on the front end. But you still have to maintain it - the road needs to be resurfaced sometimes, potholes need to be filled, the right-of-way needs to be cleared periodically of vegetation that can obstruct traffic, load limits have to be observed, etc. If the road isn’t maintained, then it pretty quicly becomes something less than a road - still usable as a transportation corridor, but with limits. Maybe it’s not suitable anymore for all vehicles, or not passable during every season. It’s better than going overland, but not by much. > > The same thing happens to a restoration project. If we completely restore a wetland (creating a meandering low-flow channel, reestablishing native vegetation, reestablishing the natural drainage patterns both to and from the area, recreating the natural sediment load and water quality entering the wetland, and reestablishing native wildlife in the area), but then don’t change any of the land management patterns around the wetland, we’ve just wasted a whole lot of money on a project that will be around for a few years, but eventually will return to what it was before the restoration. In order for a restoration project to be succesful, land management _must_ be a part of the design, and it has to be monitored and enforced. > > To do this in Iraq during the rebuilding that has to go on there would be incredibly counterproductive. In the U.S., we can sell people on the idea of restoring wetlands because their basic needs have been met. In Iraq, there’s no way we could say to anyone, “yes, I know that’s the shortest way, but you can’t put a road there because we want to make it back into a swamp.” Bad science, bad investment, and bad public relations. > > If the administration really wants to look like it’s doing something for the environment, maybe it could restore some of my funding sources that have been decimated during the last two years. \*\* This is a competent, intelligent, informative post which shows the situation is not incredibly simple. 🙂 What on earth is it doing in a December thread? 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-pres-bush-for-the-opportunity-to-restore-wetlands-and-marshes-in-mesopotamia/169559.md?page=2)