# Thanks Scott Walker for killing Wisconsin Prof Tenure! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740 "2015-06-05T20:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/61 "2015-06-07T01:28:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Let’s start killing them & find out–the public might cheer. When’s Walker going to start doing that? > > Of course, I’m talking about killing CEO _salaries_. Not time for the tumbrils. Yet. What is the problem with CEO’s making piles of money? What if their salary doubled tomorrow. How does that negatively affect you? Who cares what CEO’s make?? I care a whole lot more about what I make, and I know I have more chance of making more if people around me are also making alot more. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/62 "2015-06-07T01:42:30Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > the typical three are unemployment, GDP, and inflation. there are lots of others as well. Great! Please explain how they apply, in what ratios, and let’s have a look at some non-economic issues, too. > [@](#): > > The index of economic freedom: [Index of Economic Freedom: All Country Scores | The Heritage Foundation](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking) Generally, when citing, it’s incumbent on the citer to explain how their cite addresses the point they’re trying to make. > [@](#): > > I am not trying to be obtuse here but I just don’t get your point or even what might be wrong with this situation. It seems perfectly acceptable to me. ? I wasn’t actually claiming that this was a problematic situation. It was just an example of another way that someone could get rich other than “sell something everyone wants”. Selling something that only some people want, but who will pay more, is another route. > [@](#): > > again…I just don’t see the problem with this. You don’t see a problem with me being less able to afford goods and services? I mean, that seems like the simplest negative in the world to me; I can’t get what I want, or need. Is it just that you don’t care about my personal purchasing power? > [@](#): > > a good hypothetical but it doesn’t pertain to the real world. Why not? It’s hard to completely corner the market on some product, but you can certainly narrow the field down enough to ensure everyone is playing to the same tune, even without collusion. > [@](#): > > why do I have to come to you? why can’t I just decide to not purchase a diamond? You can certainly do that! Unless you work in an industry which uses diamonds, in which case you’re now relying on substandard alternatives, resulting in a negative impact on your profitability and the efficiency of your business. That’s just diamonds, though. What happens if we apply that through to something more vital? Although I suppose it’s certainly possible you could decide to not purchase food or utilities or a place to live. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/63 "2015-06-07T01:44:50Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > The index of economic freedom: [Index of Economic Freedom: All Country Scores | The Heritage Foundation](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking) Oh, the Heritage Foundation. The place run by the fucking insane, bigoted twat, Demint? Who cares what they think? They’re a mindlessly ideological conservative circlejerk clinging to the failed policies that kicked a generation of the American middle class in the gonads. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/64 "2015-06-07T01:46:42Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Disclosure - I’m tenured faculty. > > . > > Does that sound like a good plan to anyone here? By the time you get tenure, some of your college friends might be retiring!. > . Sorry to tell you but this shows a serious disconnect from reality. Basically no one is retiring 18 years after college. Unless they win the lottery. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/65 "2015-06-07T01:48:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Sorry to tell you but this shows a serious disconnect from reality. Basically no one is retiring after 18 years after college. Unless they win the lottery. Was actually thinking military - know several who enlisted after college at 22, retired in their early 40’s, now onto second careers with full pension. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/66 "2015-06-07T01:50:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nothing has shown that Walker is threatening the intellectual freedom of professors. It doesn’t have to be disproved, because it has not been demonstrated. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh, so ITR was just posting a random link of no consequence? Good, I thought he was trying to defend Walker. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/67 "2015-06-07T02:01:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Great! Please explain how they apply, in what ratios, and let’s have a look at some non-economic issues, too. Ok…again I lean hard on the Index of Econ. Freedom here. If you don’t accept that data, then you won’t accept my argument here. but basically, I notice a general trend that those countries with higher amounts of economic freedom have a lot more prosperity. > [@](#): > > You don’t see a problem with me being less able to afford goods and services? I mean, that seems like the simplest negative in the world to me; I can’t get what I want, or need. Is it just that you don’t care about my personal purchasing power? Why not? are you somehow entitled to a status of being able to afford the goods and service you want? is that a basic right or is it something you have to get off your butt and earn? My own thot is that being able to afford stuff is something you must earn. It’s not something the govt should give you. > [@](#): > > That’s just diamonds, though. What happens if we apply that through to something more vital? Although I suppose it’s certainly possible you could decide to not purchase food or utilities or a place to live. so are you of the opinion that the govt should provide everyone with free housing, food, and utilities? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/68 "2015-06-07T02:02:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Oh, the Heritage Foundation. The place run by the fucking insane, bigoted twat, Demint? > > Who cares what they think? They’re a mindlessly ideological conservative circlejerk clinging to the failed policies that kicked a generation of the American middle class in the gonads. so…you are of the opinion that all the data in the Index of Econ. Freedom is inaccurate? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/69 "2015-06-07T02:04:17Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Was actually thinking military - know several who enlisted after college at 22, retired in their early 40’s, now onto second careers with full pension. Pretty positive you don’t get a full pension after 18 years. And if they feel the need to keep working, they ain’t retired. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/70 "2015-06-07T02:06:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If I sell my diamonds for a ludicrous sum - let’s say a cool million for one - but all the other merchants are charging a million and a half, you _have_ to come to me for your diamonds despite my ludicrous price. There might be some factors that would persuade me to go ahead and spend the extra 50 cents (or 50p, in your case). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/71 "2015-06-07T02:18:59Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > so…you are of the opinion that all the data in the Index of Econ. Freedom is inaccurate? I’m of the opinion that the determinations made from the data is probably seen through the lens of partisan chuckle-fuck stupidity like how Demint and other idiots see everything. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/72 "2015-06-07T03:12:31Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Ok…again I lean hard on the Index of Econ. Freedom here. If you don’t accept that data, then you won’t accept my argument here. but basically, I notice a general trend that those countries with higher amounts of economic freedom have a lot more prosperity. But even accepting that, that’s correlation, not cause; how are you accounting for the idea that it isn’t the other way around - that prosperity results in more economic freedom. Or that the two are merely linked rather then causative, or significant contributors to cause. North Korea is way down there on that list, but I don’t think it would be reasonable to say that North Korea’s lack of prosperity can be put down to its economic freedom policies. Nor does your cite seem to back up the point you’re making. GDP is an extremely loose way of measuring “prosperity”, but [if we go with that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29) since you pointed to it earlier, we can compare with how they rank on the Index you cite; ```auto 1 United States - 12th most economically free nation per your cite. 2 China - 139th 3 Japan - 20th 4 Germany - 16th 5 United Kingdom - 13th 6 France - 73rd 7 Brazil - 118th 8 Italy - 80th 9 India - 128th 10 Russia - 143rd ``` If GDP works as an expression of prosperity, and the Index is a good predictor of it, we should see some kind of curve here. But it’s all over the place. And that’s not especially surprising, since there are other big factors beyond those that your cite claims to measure which play a role in GDP. The other big issue with your approach on this is that prosperity isn’t solely a determinator of what’s in my “best interests”. > [@](#): > > are you somehow entitled to a status of being able to afford the goods and service you want? is that a basic right or is it something you have to get off your butt and earn? My own thot is that being able to afford stuff is something you must earn. It’s not something the govt should give you. I’m not talking about any kind of entitlement. I’m saying that me not being able to buy what I want or need is a negative. It is a bad thing for me. It isn’t in my best interests. Speaking of earning, however; in the situation where you have raised your sandwich prices by $1 purely in the interests of gaining more profit, what is it that you have done to “get off your butt and earn” that dollar? > [@](#): > > so are you of the opinion that the govt should provide everyone with free housing, food, and utilities? No, I’m not. I’m of the opinion that the free market is generally very good at making profit, but that that does not necessitate (and, in some cases, can even harm) prosperity in the median. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/73 "2015-06-07T03:18:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > There might be some factors that would persuade me to go ahead and spend the extra 50 cents (or 50p, in your case). This is a good point too. We don’t all make our buying decisions based purely on what’s the least expensive option. Sometimes it’s even the opposite - luxury brands can get more sales by being up there with the _most_ expensive options. And then of course there’s product quality, service, ease of purchase, history… And that’s just the more rational side of things. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/74 "2015-06-07T04:08:57Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > 1. **Tenure.** Easy street. You only had to work your ass off for 18 fukken years after graduating from college! If you’re lucky, you might now be making 100K. I can understand why professors like tenure and I agree that there are benefits from such a system. However, I’ve worked my ass off for more than 18 years and I can be fired at will with no more than 2 weeks notice. I just don’t see tenure as a sacred cow that needs to be preserved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/75 "2015-06-07T09:21:50Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Was actually thinking military - know several who enlisted after college at 22, retired in their early 40’s, now onto second careers with full pension. What are you calling a “full pension”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/76 "2015-06-07T13:22:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Oh, so ITR was just posting a random link of no consequence? Good, I thought he was trying to defend Walker. No, you were trying to shift the burden of proof and it didn’t work. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/77 "2015-06-07T13:38:18Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I would like to thank Scott Walker, Wisconsin governor (and 2016 presidential candidate) for working to eliminate tenure for faculty in Wisconsin. Why is tenure considered to be such a good thing? When I was in college, I had two profs that should have been put out to pasture long before I got there. But they had tenure, so everyone in their classes got screwed over. The only way we learned enough to pass the tests was from the T. A. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/78 "2015-06-07T17:02:16Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Why is tenure considered to be such a good thing? When I was in college, I had two profs that should have been put out to pasture long before I got there. But they had tenure, so everyone in their classes got screwed over. The only way we learned enough to pass the tests was from the T. A. That may not be a problem with tenure _per se_, but with an institution or department that doesn’t value undergraduate teaching and doesn’t weigh it very heavily in their decisions about hiring faculty, awarding tenure, assigning classes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/79 "2015-06-07T18:01:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > This is untrue. “Private institution” and “business” are not synonyms. Many private institutions are not businesses. It’s amazing that you didn’t know that. > > Non-government institutions can do basic research. Ever heard of Bell Labs? I took “private institutions” to mean research conducted by non-government institutions, which was at least part of what he meant, judging from subsequent conversations. The other poster also seems profoundly misinformed about how universities are funded, particularly the distinction between capital and operating budgets and their research funding. As for Bell Labs, yes, by golly, I’ve heard of them. You will note my comment in #23 that “… Only a very few of the largest and most forward-thinking companies do any research that doesn’t have a fairly specific product focus with the prospect of short-term ROI. The rest is all public funding.” Bell Labs was one of the ones I was thinking of in that regard. However, the commercial nature of Bell Labs has become an increasingly harsh reality. It now has a layered history of foreign ownership, first Alcatel-Lucent and most recently Nokia, and over the years it has been pulling out of basic science and even semiconductor research and redirecting its focus to the immediate business interests of its owners. You know, more or less exactly like I was just saying. For example: [Bell Labs Kills Fundamental Physics Research](http://www.wired.com/2008/08/bell-labs-kills/). It’s amazing that you didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/80 "2015-06-07T19:32:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > First of all, not all research deals with science and technology. At a big research university like Wisconsin, there are hundreds of professors doing research in fields such as history, anthropology, English literature, and so forth. I don’t know many history professors who have started technology spinoffs, nor many English lit profs who bring in millions in grant money. Your post was about WI taxes paying for “rock star” “top researchers”, which has fuck all to do with an English lit prof with no funding who gets paid shit. And with only a few nuggets of that shit coming from state coffers. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for the notion that most taxpayers don’t understand the research being conducted, that’s always been true and probably always will. Few in my grandfather’s generation understood Einstein’s discoveries, but they were willing to accept that Einstein and other researchers were smart people doing useful things. Nowadays when universities are in the news, it’s usually because someone like Saida Grundy has done something stupid, not because someone like Einstein has done something intelligent. After all, the biggest news stories from academia in the past academic year were the false rape accusations at UVA and Columbia (and now [Harvard](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/doublex/2015/06/the_hunting_ground_a_closer_look_at_the_influential_documentary_reveals.html) too). In all 3 cases, the faculty were suckered by the false accusations, and journalists from off campus had to find the truth instead. What taxpayer would want to pay for such a farce? There were big news stories about false rape accusations at UVA. What farce did my VA taxes pay for, and how much did it cost, and what does that have to do with tenure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740.md?page=5)