# Thanks Scott Walker for killing Wisconsin Prof Tenure! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740 "2015-06-05T20:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/81 "2015-06-07T21:48:26Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Your post was about WI taxes paying for “rock star” “top researchers”, which has fuck all to do with an English lit prof with no funding who gets paid shit. **Algher** , who started the thread, first mentioned “rock stars”. He did not limit the term to scientists, so it’s perfectly valid to discuss professors outside science. Your implication that English lit profs are “paid shit” is difficult to fact-check without a numerical value for shit. Humanities professors at big public universities are not underpaid. My father teaches history at the University of Kentucky and earns three times as much as the average Kentuckian. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/82 "2015-06-07T21:49:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, you were trying to shift the burden of proof and it didn’t work. No, I actually was pointing out that his attempt at reasoning was faulty. You’d do well to pay better attention. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/83 "2015-06-07T22:12:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > There were big news stories about false rape accusations at UVA. What farce did my VA taxes pay for, and how much did it cost, and what does that have to do with tenure? We are discussing the question of how a typical taxpayer views universities, as you specifically said in post #13. If a typical taxpayer is constantly reading about idiotic things happening at universities, it’s likely to affect his or her view of universities, and his or her enthusiasm for funding universities. That was my point. Now you can argue that a taxpayer _shouldn’t_ judge universities by outbreaks of stupidity such as the UVA rape hoax. But the topic of how taxpayers _should_ think is separate from the question of how they _do_ think. Fundamentally, it’s up to the academic community to make the case that they deserve taxpayer money. Many profs have gotten used to having rivers of money flow in from off campus, and have forgotten that someone else has to earn that money and choose to give it to the university. If they want to convince the taxpayers to continue handing over the loot, perhaps they should offer a thorough, data-driven analysis of costs and benefits. You mentioned technology spinoffs, for instance. Well, the University of Wisconsin could report the number of such spinoffs started in the state. (Though if that number turns out to be zero, that would be slightly embarrassing.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/84 "2015-06-07T23:52:47Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **Algher** , who started the thread, first mentioned “rock stars”. He did not limit the term to scientists, so it’s perfectly valid to discuss professors outside science. Your implication that English lit profs are “paid shit” is difficult to fact-check without a numerical value for shit. Humanities professors at big public universities are not underpaid. My father teaches history at the University of Kentucky and earns three times as much as the average Kentuckian. **You** used the terms in \*\* your\*\* post. Their salaries in WI are easy to check online, which you’d know if you’d bothered checking. If you have a point to make about rock star top researchers, you have all the data at your disposal to help you make it. You can identify every single one of these researchers and tell us “why would that be a bad thing” or not if they left. I explained why top researchers are valuable for a state. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/85 "2015-06-08T04:20:42Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > **You** used the terms in \*\* your\*\* post. Their salaries in WI are easy to check online, which you’d know if you’d bothered checking. If you have a point to make about rock star top researchers, you have all the data at your disposal to help you make it. You can identify every single one of these researchers and tell us “why would that be a bad thing” or not if they left. Yeah, I could, but I’m not going to devote that much time and effort to an online debate. The people of Wisconsin elected Walker and the current legislature. If those who dislike Walker’s choices want to convince the voters of Wisconsin to change course, it’s up to them to make the case that tenure is necessary. > [@](#): > > I explained why top researchers are valuable for a state. Do you disagree? Yes, I disagree. And I’ve already explained why. > [@ITR Champion](#): > > Fundamentally, it’s up to the academic community to make the case that they deserve taxpayer money. Many profs have gotten used to having rivers of money flow in from off campus, and have forgotten that someone else has to earn that money and choose to give it to the university. If they want to convince the taxpayers to continue handing over the loot, perhaps they should offer a thorough, data-driven analysis of costs and benefits. You mentioned technology spinoffs, for instance. Well, the University of Wisconsin could report the number of such spinoffs started in the state. (Though if that number turns out to be zero, that would be slightly embarrassing.) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/86 "2015-06-08T08:50:27Z")
It’s worth pointing out that academic tenure is almost universally unknown outside of the United States and Canada, from what I can tell. In the UK, we have no concept of academic tenure (barring special cases like Oxford — in anything academic in the UK Cambridge and Oxford are always special cases), with the majority of permanent teaching/research staff being employed on standard contracts and can be terminated like any other employee. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/87 "2015-06-08T10:46:03Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Why didn’t you become a professor? Possibly because the application pool for these “underpaid” teaching positions is extraordinarily competitive and overcrowded. It would appear the teaching game is a pretty good gig compared with other jobs if one looks at how many are clawing to get in instead of the marketing PR around the low pay, intense sacrifice, and horrible working conditions… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/88 "2015-06-08T10:47:31Z")
Here’s an idea instead of tenure: Be good enough at what you do that your employer wants to keep you on because you are valuable to the organization. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/89 "2015-06-08T11:43:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, I actually was pointing out that his attempt at reasoning was faulty. You asserted that, but you were wrong. > [@](#): > > You’d do well to pay better attention. Don’t worry, it doesn’t take much to spot how stupid and wrong your post was. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/90 "2015-06-08T13:21:40Z")
The Board of Regents will now have more power to fire teachers. Walker appoints the Board of Regents. So, if he doesn’t approve of something for ideological reasons, like, say, **stem cell research** , suddenly, like magic, those positions disappear over night. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/91 "2015-06-08T13:27:15Z")
You didn’t read the article in the OP, did you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/92 "2015-06-08T13:34:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You didn’t read the article in the OP, did you? > > Regards, > Shodan Oh, really? > [@](#): > > Specifically, the Wisconsin Legislature’s Joint Finance Committee has approved a bill that would move tenure from state statute into the purview of the governing Board of Regents. University administration would be able to fire or lay off faculty or academic staff not only for financial emergencies and just cause, as it now the case, but also “when such an action is deemed necessary due to a budget or program decision regarding program discontinuance, curtailment, modification, or redirection.” Not only would it be much easier to lay off faculty but administrators would also have control over decisions involving academic programs and curricula that are now accorded to faculty. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/93 "2015-06-08T16:02:09Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Here’s an idea instead of tenure: > > Be good enough at what you do that your employer wants to keep you on because you are valuable to the organization. “Instead” of tenure? What if your value to your employer is such that they offer you tenure in order to secure your services? It seems a little unreasonable of you to want to be able to overrule how employers value their employees. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/94 "2015-06-08T16:03:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Why is tenure considered to be such a good thing? When I was in college, I had two profs that should have been put out to pasture long before I got there. But they had tenure, so everyone in their classes got screwed over. The only way we learned enough to pass the tests was from the T. A. Tenure provides two benefits: 1. Protects the professor’s research from politics (see the University of Oklahoma example, or John Lott for another unpopular line of inquiry). 2. Is a key attraction to the position. If you eliminate it, then you will either need to increase the pay level or be ready for lower level candidates. Tenure is huge incentive to give up private sector work and stay in the academy. As an aside, as the OP - I am far from a Democrat. I did overstate the title (and admitted it on the first page). By the time the impact of this hits (and maybe the governor’s Regents won’t do anything with the power if they get it), it will be too late and the universities will have to start over from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/95 "2015-06-08T16:26:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You asserted that, but you were wrong. It’s not wrong to say that pointing out an unrelated issue doesn’t disprove something. If we’re talking about Joe being bad at his plumbing job, bringing up how Dave is bad at managing a pizza joint has no bearing. > [@](#): > > Don’t worry, it doesn’t take much to spot how stupid and wrong your post was. It takes even less to not understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/96 "2015-06-08T16:54:25Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Oh, really? Yes, really. > [@](#): > > when such an action is deemed necessary due to a budget or program decision regarding program discontinuance, curtailment, modification, or redirection. [QUOTE=Lobohan] It’s not wrong to say that pointing out an unrelated issue doesn’t disprove something. [/QUOTE] I already explained that to you - nothing needed to be disproven. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/97 "2015-06-08T17:01:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I already explained that to you - nothing needed to be disproven. Perhaps that’s true. Yet ITR still stumbled in the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/98 "2015-06-08T17:22:35Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It would appear the teaching game is a pretty good gig compared with other jobs if one looks at how many are clawing to get in … That’s a fascinatingly perverse way to describe the crisis of university underfunding and the consequent shortage of tenure-track research faculty positions. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/99 "2015-06-08T20:56:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yeah, I could, but I’m not going to devote that much time and effort to an online debate. I have given you the tools to learn. Ignorance or knowledge is your choice. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes, I disagree. And I’ve already explained why. You quoted a paragraph recommending better public outreach. That is not an explanation for why a state is better off if its rock star top researchers leave. The data are all there for you, should you choose to make use of them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740/100 "2015-06-09T00:17:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I have given you the tools to learn. Ignorance or knowledge is your choice. > You quoted a paragraph recommending better public outreach. That is not an explanation for why a state is better off if its rock star top researchers leave. The data are all there for you, should you choose to make use of them. Well, I’ve suggested that you provide some data to back your assertion that departing “rock star” professors will cost the state of Wisconsin financially. You haven’t provided any. My reason for thinking that Wisconsin might be better off if it got rid of some of its most celebrated professors is self-evident, or at least it ought to be. According to data that can easily be found online, the top Gender and Women’s Studies prof at Madison makes over $100,000, while an associate professor in the same department makes barely $40,000. So if a university in California poaches the top prof and an associate replaces her, that’s $60,000 saved by Wisconsin. (Actually, those who understand how taxes and benefits work know that it’s even more than $60,000.) Meanwhile taxpayers and students in California are the suckers; they’re paying $$$ for no clear benefit. Someone might reply that the state of Wisconsin will lose money if their senior Gender and Women’s Studies prof departs, but in the absence of solid evidence, why should I believe such a thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-scott-walker-for-killing-wisconsin-prof-tenure/721740.md?page=6)