Thanks Scott Walker for killing Wisconsin Prof Tenure!

[Algher]

@Bricker

I do.

I contend that the best employees are always in demand regardless of tenure, and that tenure actually attracts mediocre employees, who seek to cement their employment prospects by removing any need for them to continue to justify their worth.

Tenure and Pension (two things that are not as common in the private sector) work to replace lost wages available in the private sector. Remove one, and another part has to balance out - that is plain labor economics.

The unique nature of academia is the very long-term nature of the ROI of a given employee. In the tech industry, we use options to keep certain critical employees around due to the cost of turnover. The less critical, the fewer options. I have people on my team I could replace tomorrow - their option grants reflect that.

With faculty, their research can take years to manifest itself. From hypothesis to journal publication can be years, and what you do not want to do is have someone leave just before they can announce their breakthrough. If that happens, another university gets the credit, the rankings, the better students, etc. Tenure helps keep top faculty around.

The path to tenure is tough (a friend of mine just found out that they won’t get it). This friend has been working for 5 years as an Assistant Professor, and now must find another position. They will have to leave the university, and hope that a position is available somewhere in the nation. For faculty positions in a given field, openings are few and far between and are scattered across the globe - the job market is an interesting one.

Another issue around measuring excellence is that much of the review has to be done by outsiders. Journal publications are based on reviewers in your field -and more there is rarely another person in your specific narrow field at your university.

Finally - teaching. There are some great teachers who do poor research. They end up at colleges that are focused more on teaching. In California, that would be the Cal State system and the community colleges. If your research is stellar, and your teaching is good and your service is sufficient - you can get tenure at one of the University of California schools.

There are some great researchers who are good enough teachers, who are great teachers, and sometimes who are poor teachers depending on the classroom. Some are better with graduate students, others are good with seminars, some know how to entertain a large lecture hall of 400+ students. Each room takes a different touch and feel and style.

So how about those students? Well - SOME are there to learn. Others are there to get their ticket punched with a degree. A third group is of the Jimmy Buffet category “Send you off to college to try to get a bit of knowledge, but all you want to do is learn how to score…” The BEST students go to office hours, and even more they do joint research with faculty if they are driven and lucky. My faculty friends regularly have dinner parties of undergrads at their homes for those students who have come in to work on research in a lab of some sort. I did some work with faculty when I was an undergrad, which convinced me to NOT go towards a PhD - it did not appeal to me at the time.

[Algher]

@Shodan

I was wondering if you had any examples of professors being fired for their unpopular research. I don’t doubt that Professor Chicken Little, PhD., is going to react hysterically. I was wondering if he was including “the sky is falling” under his definition of man-made global climate change.

Regards,
Shodan

I know of one place where pressure was attempted, but could not proceed due to academic protections. That is when one of the most powerful business interests in Oklahoma tried to shut down some research. Yes, they failed. Without tenure protection, however, I wonder what might have happened:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-30/big-oil-pressured-scientists-over-fracking-wastewater-s-link-to-quakes

[mozchron]

@Algher

I know of one place where pressure was attempted, but could not proceed due to academic protections. That is when one of the most powerful business interests in Oklahoma tried to shut down some research. Yes, they failed. Without tenure protection, however, I wonder what might have happened:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-30/big-oil-pressured-scientists-over-fracking-wastewater-s-link-to-quakes

Here’s a better article, with emails:

Oil CEO Wanted University Quake Scientists Dismissed: Dean’s E-Mail

“Mr. Hamm is very upset at some of the earthquake reporting to the point that he would like to see select OGS staff dismissed,” wrote Larry Grillot, the dean of the university’s Mewbourne College of Earth and Energy, in a July 16, 2014, e-mail to colleagues at the university.

When as a faculty member, you get hauled into the Admin office for a sit-down with a huge donor who is opposed to your research, tenure may be your only protection.

[Magiver]

@mozchron

Here’s a better article, with emails:

Oil CEO Wanted University Quake Scientists Dismissed: Dean’s E-Mail

When as a faculty member, you get hauled into the Admin office for a sit-down with a huge donor who is opposed to your research, tenure may be your only protection.

So we’re back if tenure as an avenue of doing whatever you want.

[mozchron]

@Magiver

So we’re back if tenure as an avenue of doing whatever you want.

I don’t answer to donors.

If a professor is doing their job, and the results upset a donor, do you really think that donor should be able to influence the University to silence the professor or stop them from pursuing that line of research? Really?

Controversial subjects will only get studied if the people studying them are free from outside interference. Tenure may be the only thing allowing that.

I often talk about evolution and climate change in class, and those subjects are part of what I research. Should a donor be able to silence me?

[Magiver]

@mozchron

I don’t answer to donors.

If a professor is doing their job, and the results upset a donor, do you really think that donor should be able to influence the University to silence the professor or stop them from pursuing that line of research? Really?

Controversial subjects will only get studied if the people studying them are free from outside interference. Tenure may be the only thing allowing that.

I often talk about evolution and climate change in class, and those subjects are part of what I research. Should a donor be able to silence me?

No, you’re free to research whatever you want. Nobody can stop that.

What the university wants you to do with it’s money is a different story.

[mozchron]

@Magiver

No, you’re free to research whatever you want. Nobody can stop that.

What the university wants you to do with it’s money is a different story.

My research money comes from granting agencies (NIH, NSF, USDA, Gates, etc…), not the University.

[mozchron]

@Magiver

No, you’re free to research whatever you want. Nobody can stop that.

The story shows that the donor wanted research staff fired for researching sensitive topics. Tenure protections stopped that.

[Magiver]

@mozchron

My research money comes from granting agencies (NIH, NSF, USDA, Gates, etc…), not the University.

Again, you’re free to do as you please with your grant money. Work out of your garage, start you’re own college or commune.

You are not the University.

[mozchron]

@Magiver

Again, you’re free to do as you please with your grant money. Work out of your garage, start you’re own college or commune.

You are not the University.

So you’re saying that donors should be able to censor or control faulty duties.

[Urbanredneck]

I have no problem with pulling tenure for professors because frankly, you damn well dont deserve it! At least not at state or taxpayer funded colleges. Private colleges can do what they want.

Their are some pretty leftist and hateful professors out there pushing all kinds of crap, all on the taxpayers dime.

Examples: Gang of 88 at Duke. I soooo wish every damn one of them had been fired but they were not. Why? Your stupid laws giving them tenure!

So hell yes get rid of tenure!

Another one:

Professor at Pitzer college encouraging people to bash, criticize and assult Christians (but not Muslims)

Back in 2005 at my own alma mater one professor Paul Mirecki was open about his hatred for Christians and religious people when he penned an email " “Doing my part to piss off the religious right, Evil Dr. P”. He then tried to fake a hate attack. YET, he kept his damn tenure and his paycheck.LINK

Which only proves that professors, at least the ones who get caught, (including many that I had in college) are NOT teaching but are simply out to push their leftist and atheist viewpoints on students.

BTW. Being an atheist is fine. But if your goal in life is to push it on unsuspecting Christian students (which obviously many college professors are) and push bigotry and hatred, go work at a private college.

And their are some pretty sick pervs in there:
The “F***saw professor” at Northwestern. Yes, your tax dollars at work!

So you tell me why some sick perv professor like that should get tenure?

[Inbred_Mm_domesticus]

@Urbanredneck

And their are some pretty sick pervs in there:
The “F***saw professor” at Northwestern. Yes, your tax dollars at work!

So you tell me why some sick perv professor like that should get tenure?

I fail to see what was sick or perverted about the human sexuality professor’s demonstrations.

Your post, Shodan’s posts and Magiver’s have pretty much convinced me of the absolute need for tenure. I was actually leaning against tenure prior to reading the last page of this thread. I was sympathetic to the argument that tenure was used by lazy faculty to not do their job and that certainly exists, but what would the world be like without tenure?

It would homogenize education and make every professor worry about satisfying all the students, society and donors all the time. Conservatives already seem far too obsessed with criticizing the activities of college professors. I think it is a bad idea to open up professors’ activities to punishment from their research on topics that are unpopular with conservatives. When you look at the pathetic state of primary and secondary education in conservative leaning states, it would be a disaster to open up public colleges to the anger and retribution of people who seem to value education as a means of indoctrination rather than exploration.

A professorship would effectively be a political appointment.

In essence, screw that with a fucksaw.

[mozchron]

@Urbanredneck

I have no problem with pulling tenure for professors because frankly, you damn well dont deserve it! At least not at state or taxpayer funded colleges. Private colleges can do what they want.

Their are some pretty leftist and hateful professors out there pushing all kinds of crap, all on the taxpayers dime.

Examples: Gang of 88 at Duke. I soooo wish every damn one of them had been fired but they were not. Why? Your stupid laws giving them tenure!

So hell yes get rid of tenure!

Another one:

Professor at Pitzer college encouraging people to bash, criticize and assult Christians (but not Muslims)

Back in 2005 at my own alma mater one professor Paul Mirecki was open about his hatred for Christians and religious people when he penned an email " “Doing my part to piss off the religious right, Evil Dr. P”. He then tried to fake a hate attack. YET, he kept his damn tenure and his paycheck.LINK

Which only proves that professors, at least the ones who get caught, (including many that I had in college) are NOT teaching but are simply out to push their leftist and atheist viewpoints on students.

BTW. Being an atheist is fine. But if your goal in life is to push it on unsuspecting Christian students (which obviously many college professors are) and push bigotry and hatred, go work at a private college.

And their are some pretty sick pervs in there:
The “F***saw professor” at Northwestern. Yes, your tax dollars at work!

So you tell me why some sick perv professor like that should get tenure?

Um…you are aware that all three examples in your post - Duke, Pitzer and Northwestern - are private institutions, are you not?

I won’t even get into the rest of your “points”.

[CalMeacham]

@Shodan

I was wondering if you had any examples of professors being fired for their unpopular research. I don’t doubt that Professor Chicken Little, PhD., is going to react hysterically. I was wondering if he was including “the sky is falling” under his definition of man-made global climate change.

Regards,
Shodan

Well, they just legislated that change. Give it a chance.

[spifflog]

@Inbred_Mm_domesticus

I fail to see what was sick or perverted about the human sexuality professor’s demonstrations.

. . .

Your post, Shodan’s posts and Magiver’s have pretty much convinced me of the absolute need for tenure. I was actually leaning against tenure prior to reading the last page of this thread. I was sympathetic to the argument that tenure was used by lazy faculty to not do their job and that certainly exists, but what would the world be like without tenure?

In essence, screw that with a fucksaw.

I’m very liberal. But you don’t think it’s over the top to see a woman on a stage screwed by a dildo powered by a power saw? No issues with that at all? You don’t put at a hair into the perverted category?

[Inbred_Mm_domesticus]

@spifflog

I’m very liberal. But you don’t think it’s over the top to see a woman on a stage screwed by a dildo powered by a power saw? No issues with that at all? You don’t put at a hair into the perverted category?

No, I don’t believe it is over the top to have a voluntarily demonstration that adults can optionally attend of an extreme masturbatory device in a human sexuality class.

What I would consider perverted would be the professor sending videos of himself masturbating to his female students.

See the difference?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Urbanredneck

Their are some pretty leftist and hateful professors out there pushing all kinds of crap, all on the taxpayers dime.

Another one:

Professor at Pitzer college encouraging people to bash, criticize and assult Christians (but not Muslims)

This is the most misleading precis of a “cite” I have ever read on the SDMB. You do realize we can actually click the links, right? You should be ashamed of yourself.

[spifflog]

@Inbred_Mm_domesticus

No, I don’t believe it is over the top to have a voluntarily demonstration that adults can optionally attend of an extreme masturbatory device in a human sexuality class.

What I would consider perverted would be the professor sending videos of himself masturbating to his female students.

See the difference?

Not really.

But if you want to use this as a partial defense of tenure, knock yourself out.

[Inbred_Mm_domesticus]

@spifflog

Not really.

But if you want to use this as a partial defense of tenure, knock yourself out.

An academic exploring every aspect of their field of interest and communicating that to students and society definitely does need protection from people like yourself who can’t see the difference between a voluntary demonstration of consensual sexual behavior and an example of sexual aggression. That’s why there is tenure.

[Urbanredneck]

@mozchron

I don’t answer to donors.

If a professor is doing their job, and the results upset a donor, do you really think that donor should be able to influence the University to silence the professor or stop them from pursuing that line of research? Really?

Controversial subjects will only get studied if the people studying them are free from outside interference. Tenure may be the only thing allowing that.

I often talk about evolution and climate change in class, and those subjects are part of what I research. Should a donor be able to silence me?

Hell yes. Why should you not be accountable to the people who write your paycheck?

So if a janitor decides to not clean your office because he decides it causes global warming, would that be ok? It shouldnt. Your BOTH university employees. He should be able to do anything he damn well pleases and if that means not emptying your trash, not cleaning the bathrooms, not sweeping the floors - you should be supportive. Oh and the same for the people who keep the heat and air conditioning on or who fix your computer.

BUT THEN, janitors, hvac techs, and IT people dont have tenure do they? Nope. They can be fired if they dont do their jobs and they dont get to decide how to do their jobs.

Funny how at a college ONLY proffs see the need for tenure and the right to do whatever they damn well please.