# Thanks to the non-US'ers for your patience **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493 "2010-03-23T16:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/61 "2010-03-24T20:15:11Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Stablest banking system in the world, baby! šŸ˜ƒ Crap! I had totally forgotten that we were supposed to ship Greenspan up there to ruin your banking system. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/62 "2010-03-24T20:17:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > \ Many of the countries whose so-called superior health care plans and economies only enjoy them to the degree they do because they donā€™t have spend money militarily to keep themselves safeā€¦or at least safe to whatever degree they are capable ofā€¦because alliances with the U.S. do the protecting for them.\ Funnily enough, you could argue that the biggest threat to Canadian safety is the US. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/63 "2010-03-24T20:18:02Z")
While weā€™re at it, Iā€™d like to apologize to those Canadians and Europeans who had to deal with people with the IQ of turnips telling them that they didnā€™t understand how their own health care system worked, and that by damn they had to wait for months for care because thatā€™s what Fox News said. Oh, and for calling you not fat. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/64 "2010-03-24T20:19:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Crap! I had totally forgotten that we were supposed to ship Greenspan up there to ruin your banking system. Oh, no, thatā€™s okay; you can keep him. Weā€™ll just stick with having a Prime Minister who has a Masterā€™s Degree in economics. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/65 "2010-03-24T20:21:28Z")
On the other hand, you owe me an apology for all my acquaintancesā€™ nonexistent British friends who assured them that the NHS was the worst thing to happen to Britain since the gunboat stopped being a useful foreign policy tool. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/66 "2010-03-24T21:14:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This may be the most laughable, most pathetic, most stroke-seeking thread the board has ever seen. It oozes obsequiousness; reeks of desperation and the need for a hug. Pablum of the finest sort. Congratulations. and thanks for the giggles. > > The only question is how long before you feel embarrassed by it. > > (Note: quicker is better.) How fast were the right-wingers embarrassed by the lies, misrepresentations, and hyperbole put out by their leaders and pundits? Grow some self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/67 "2010-03-24T22:10:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Iā€™m not whinging about it. Iā€™m merely pointing out that a lot of countries around the world have the luxury of being protected by U.S. military mightā€¦ Name ten. I mean, do you really think nuclear-armed France, with perhaps the best public health care system ever created, is relying on the U.S. for its defense? How exactly is anyone supposed to invade a country with nuclear weapons and a rather plainspoken first use policy? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/68 "2010-03-24T22:49:18Z")
The Ardennes? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/69 "2010-03-24T23:06:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Name ten. > > I mean, do you really think nuclear-armed France, with perhaps the best public health care system ever created, is relying on the U.S. for its defense? How exactly is anyone supposed to invade a country with nuclear weapons and a rather plainspoken first use policy? Bwahahaha! Name _TEN_? So you acknowledge my point but want to quibble over the _number_? Most of Europe, including France, would be goose-stepping or calling each other comrade if not for the U.S. and itā€™s support and protection through the years since WWII (and which of course says nothing about our role in keeping them free by _winning_ WWII). And Iā€™d wager most of Latin America and the best parts of Asia would have fallen under communist domination by now as well. The fact that France developed nuclear capability while being shielded by U.S. military might means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/70 "2010-03-24T23:09:51Z")
Yes, yes, the United States has a big dick - we can all see it on the maps. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/71 "2010-03-24T23:15:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Yes, yes, the United States has a big dick - we can all see it on the maps. Apparently Canada does too. ^^^ ETA: By the way, I see the OPā€™s point. There are so many people here who are interested in accurately and helpfully discussing policy considerations and geopolitics. I donā€™t know what weā€™d do without all this great commentary. Youā€™re _all_ a bunch of jingoist morons clad in stars and bars or maple leaves or whatever. Which just reinforces that the OPā€™s post was a laughable suck-up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/72 "2010-03-24T23:17:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Most of Europe, including France, would be goose-stepping or calling each other comrade if not for the U.S. and itā€™s support and protection through the years since WWII (and which of course says nothing about our role in keeping them free by _winning_ WWII). And Iā€™d wager most of Latin America and the best parts of Asia would have fallen under communist domination by now as well. The fact that France developed nuclear capability while being shielded by U.S. military might means nothing. What protection? NATO forces in Europe- including American forces permanently stationed there- would have been overrun by the Soviets in weeks. It was the threat of a nuclear exchange which protected Europe from communism, and only that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/73 "2010-03-24T23:21:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Most of Europe, including France, would be goose-stepping or calling each other comrade if not for the U.S. and itā€™s support and protection through the years since WWII (and which of course says nothing about our role in keeping them free by _winning_ WWII). Winning World War II, which of course was not solely - or even mostly - an American enterprise, has nothing to do with the cost of health care systems, since UHC was largely a post-war innovation. I realize this all happened a long time ago but thereā€™s history books and everything. Now, please explain how a nuclear-armed country could be taken over by the USSR. Itā€™d be a fascinating explanation, I am sure. > [@](#): > > And Iā€™d wager most of Latin America and the best parts of Asia would have fallen under communist domination by now as well. Didnā€™t quite a lot of the world fall under Communist domination anyway? Some protection. Arenā€™t you the guy who once claimed that all Western European countries had no armies during the Cold War and none of them had conscription? The U.S. is rightly regarded as the worldā€™s foremost military power. Asserting that other countries have universal health insurance because of it is plainly stupid. **The United States already spent as much, per capita, on public health insurance as other Western countries.** Thereā€™s no tradeoff happening in the USA that isnā€™t happening elsewhere; the U.S. was forking out just as much dough for its fractures health care systems as Canada, France, et al. were for their universal systems. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/74 "2010-03-24T23:21:21Z")
Europeā€™s Latin Lover dick is bigger šŸ™‚ Anyway, if you want to pull out from your bases, feel free. The surrounding communities will be sorry to see you go, but Europe can manage fine now. kthxbye ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/75 "2010-03-24T23:33:04Z")
Soon as weā€™re done killin ur doodz. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/76 "2010-03-24T23:41:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Thereā€™s no tradeoff happening in the USA that isnā€™t happening elsewhere; the U.S. was forking out just as much dough for its fractures health care systems as Canada, France, et al. were for their universal systems. Not quite, but pretty damn close - and this is a point worth following up on. Medicaid and Medicare together cost $676 billion last year, or about $2,200 per American (not per _covered_ American, just per American). The UK NHS budget was a hair over 100 billion GBP in 2009, or about $160 billion, or slightly under $2,700 per Briton (all of whom, of course, were covered). Medicare covered about 45 million people in 2008, the last year for which I could find figures. Medicaid and SCHIP covered about 40 million. Assuming no Medicare recipients were also eligible for Medicaid (unlikely, but I canā€™t find combined coverage figures, so weā€™ll use the best case scenario), Medicaid and Medicare cost $7900 per covered American. Now, granted, Medicare covers the old, and Medicaid the poor, and both groups cost more than average. At least balancing that is the fact that Medicare involves substantial co-payments and deductibles; the NHS has minimal co-payments and no deductibles. In other words, we pay three times as much to give 20% more people 70% (thatā€™s a generous figure) of the coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/77 "2010-03-24T23:53:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Winning World War II, which of course was not solely - or even mostly - an American enterprise, has nothing to do with the cost of health care systems, since UHC was largely a post-war innovation. Iā€™m aware of that. > [@RickJay](#): > > I realize this all happened a long time ago but thereā€™s history books and everything. I remember it well. šŸ˜ƒ > [@RickJay](#): > > Now, please explain how a nuclear-armed country could be taken over by the USSR. Itā€™d be a fascinating explanation, I am sure. Because of the knowledge that it would be wiped from the face of the Earth if it didnā€™t acquiesce? Do you really mean to imply that France has ever had the capability of destroying the Soviet Union? > [@RickJay](#): > > Didnā€™t quite a lot of the world fall under Communist domination anyway? Some protection. Youā€™re speaking of the Warsaw pact, I presume, which was signed by countries already under Soviet control? What would you have had us do, invade the Soviet Union and liberate them? I said that countries in Europe which have been free have been able to remain so because their freedom was protected by the U.S.; I didnā€™t say we freed countries already under Soviet domination. So I donā€™t know what your point is. > [@RickJay](#): > > Arenā€™t you the guy who once claimed that all Western European countries had no armies during the Cold War and none of them had conscription? No. > [@RickJay](#): > > The U.S. is rightly regarded as the worldā€™s foremost military power. Asserting that other countries have universal health insurance because of it is plainly stupid. So I guess itā€™s fortunate for me that I never said that, huh? > [@RickJay](#): > > **The United States already spent as much, per capita, on public health insurance as other Western countries.** Thereā€™s no tradeoff happening in the USA that isnā€™t happening elsewhere; the U.S. was forking out just as much dough for its fractures health care systems as Canada, France, et al. were for their universal systems. So what? The problem with you liberal types is that you regard all the money earned or spent within the U.S. as being a huge pot belonging to everyone, but it isnā€™t. It belongs to the individuals who earned it, or at least got to keep whatā€™s left of it after having sizable portions redistributed by the government to people who didnā€™t earn it. And many of those individuals paid for health care that is widely regarded as the best in the world, and by so doing paid for medical research that brought even more excellent health care. They also paid for medicines which funded pharmacuetical research and advancement. So when you take money spent by a certain segment of the population for excellent care and deride it for costing more than so-so care for everyone under a government plan, itā€™s a false comparison. Clearly though, things have gotten out of hand in terms of what our health care costs, and many options exist for dealing with it. But liberals, who canā€™t stand the idea that some people have it better than others, ignore those alternatives in favor of putting everything in the hands of government so as to ensure equality for all (except, curiously, government workers and politicians themselves) even if it results in substandard care for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/78 "2010-03-25T00:08:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Clearly though, things have gotten out of hand in terms of what our health care costs, and many options exist for dealing with it. But liberals, who canā€™t stand the idea that some people have it better than others, ignore those alternatives in favor of putting everything in the hands of government so as to ensure equality for all (except, curiously, government workers and politicians themselves) even if it results in substandard care for everyone. What are these options, pray tell? Why donā€™t you share with us the **Starving Artist** plan for health care reform? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/79 "2010-03-25T01:14:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Youā€™re speaking of the Warsaw pact, I presume, which was signed by countries already under Soviet control? What would you have had us do, invade the Soviet Union and liberate them? I was thinking more along the lines of the many Communist countries that were not in the Warsaw pact, such as China, Vietnam, Cuba, et al. > [@](#): > > So I guess itā€™s fortunate for me that I never said that, huh? Sure you did: [QUOTE=Starving Artist] Iā€™m merely pointing out that a lot of countries around the world have the luxury of being protected by U.S. military might, and this has freed up their economies to spend money on other things. [/QUOTE] You were, quite obviously, referring to universal health insurance. As I have pointed out, the fundamental premise is false - the U.S. already spent an enormous amount on public health insurance and so was not foregoing that expense in favour of military spending. > [@](#): > > So what? The problem with you liberal types is that you regard all the money earned or spent within the U.S. as being a huge pot belonging to everyone, but it isnā€™t. No, I donā€™t. > [@](#): > > It belongs to the individuals who earned it, or at least got to keep whatā€™s left of it after having sizable portions redistributed by the government to people who didnā€™t earn it. Agreed. Thatā€™s how countries work. The government has to take a cut for things that markets canā€™t do on their own. Thereā€™s no better way of doing it. I certainly do wish things like armies, central banks and fire departments would spring from the ground of their own accord, but they donā€™t. > [@](#): > > So when you take money spent by a certain segment of the population for excellent care and deride it for costing more than so-so care for everyone under a government plan, itā€™s a false comparison. I have not made that comparison. Perhaps you are referring to someone else. My point was that the USA spent as much on public health care - e.g. Medicare and Medicaid - as other countries with universal health insurance. In FY 2008 the United States spent at least $900 billion on Medicare and Medicaid, about $3000 per taxpayer, despite covering only one in three Americans. In other words, the USA was, and is, paying similar public dollars to buy the so-so care you donā€™t like and getting less of it than other countries are getting. Thatā€™s just plain fact. If you donā€™t like public health insurance, **then the status quo was arguably worse than a truly universal system.** Under the U.S. plan as existed one month ago a middle class taxpayer would be paying a fair amount of tax money to find two health systems that they got absolutely no benefit from. If youā€™re gonna have a mediocre system at least let everyone use it. > [@](#): > > But liberals, who canā€™t stand the idea that some people have it better than others, ignore those alternatives in favor of putting everything in the hands of government so as to ensure equality for all (except, curiously, government workers and politicians themselves) even if it results in substandard care for everyone. I admit the health care legislation is amazingly convoluted, but my understanding is that your statement is entirely false. It does not ā€œput everything,ā€ or even most things, in the hands of government. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493/80 "2010-03-25T02:39:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ya, like less government debt per capita, less debt per GDP, better unemployment rate, a rising currency, a solvent government pension plan, and better future economic growth predictions. Other than that, Canada is an economic shithole. Iā€™ve already refuted each and every one of these points, with cites, in another thread, which you have ignored. I am not surprised. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-to-the-non-users-for-your-patience/533493.md?page=5)