# Thanks, TVeblen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360 "2008-09-06T17:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/121 "2008-09-07T17:46:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was simply a time when the huge group of people known as the baby-boom generation was coming of age, and they decided all the old ways had to go and what was good about life in this country then got swept aside along with the bad. > > I seriously doubt if a very significant percentage of people who were adults prior to the late sixties thinks the way people behave today is superior, and it’s the way people behave now as a result of the upheaval that took place then that I’m talking about. Interesting bit of historical revionism. Not as a total re-writing against known facts, but more as a simple shading of events as though it had been written by a Right wing parent the week after the Kent State shootings and left, unexamined and untainted by facts, in the ensuing 38 years. (I am reminded about the KSU shootings because I recall the reported conversation of a student who had called home in shock and was told by her mother that if the student had been at the protests, the mother had hoped that the daughter had been shot. THAT is old fashioned civility at its finest.) A lot of people (on both sides of the political divide) act as though “the boomers” were some sort of monolithic group that suddenly rose up _en masse_ and overthrew civility and right thinking in a single sweeping four-year period. It just ain’t that way. For example, while the Vietnam War was certainly a hot point issue for many boomer protests, polls taken throughout that period indicated that slightly more than half of people in the boomer age range continued to support U.S. involvement well past 1970. (I cannot currently find the link, but this was recently posted with citation on this board.) Well over half the names on the Vietnam War Memorial are of boomers. At the same time, we note that much of the counter-culture writings as well as the overwhelming majority of movies, TV shows, and novels (the primary sources of popular culture) written between 1968 and 1972 were produced by people too old to have been boomers. Popular music would have included far more boomers, but there was still a lot of it emanating from people far older. You mentioned _All in the Family_, earlier. I note that it was written and produced by the parents of boomers, not boomers, with only two characters presented as boomers–and Reiner and Struthers were among the oldest boomers, born in '47 and '48–and with “Meathead” Mike Stivic presented as about as much of a jerk (in different ways) as Archie a lot of the time. If all one remembers from the 1960s are anti-war protestors being rude, I would suggest that one must have made a serious effort to ignore the catcalls and disparaging remarks that passed older lips regarding such simple things as longer hair or floral print clothing. I can remember thugs beating up “hippies,” guys being fired from jobs for having their hair extend as far as their collars, and women being disciplined (or fired) for sdhowing up at work in slacks or low heels. I tend to agree with the background point that there is a bit less civility in 2008 than in 1968, but that can hardly be attributed solely to the people who were subjected to such scorn for their appearances. It is also a matter of changing modes of expression. There were similar complaints in the '40s and '50s that people were too coarse. Crime? It waxes and wanes based on the number of males in the age range 15 - 35 irrespective of what year it is. (Look at actual criminal histories from the earlier twentieth century or from periods in the nineteenth century. Blaming that on some sort of cultural change is not merely incorrect, it requires significant ignoring of facts.) If anything, the 1950s were the unnatural departure from the way this country has typically lived. Having come out on top in WWII, with the only industrial base that had never been seriously damaged (or destroyed), and with actions such as the Marshall Plan to give ourselves a feeling of (sometimes smug) satisfaction in the ways that we perceived our righteousness, we spent a bit more than a decade acting as though we had achieved some sort of glorious stage of evolution such as Greece’s Golden Age. (Or, at least, as the popular histories portray Greece’s Golden Age; a thorough study of that period turns up some interesting conflicting phenomena.) As we entered the 1960s, the leisure of the 1950s had provided the luxury of time to ponder a number of facts: that we still held over ten percent of the population to be second class citizens and treated them shabbily; that much of our “anti-communist” rhetoric was being used to support dictatorships (to allegedly protect our freedom, them furriners be damned); that women were held to different standards than men and were denied far more opportunities; and that in an increasingly pluralistic society, many people were being forced to accept specific religious pronouncements that went against their own views. As the conclusions of those examinations began to be expressed more frequently in society, people among all ages and states of life began to respond. Since many of the problems that were perceived were linked directly to either government or other societal control, there was a general rebellion among a lot of people (not just boomers) that reacted against control of any form. When it became clear that Nixon had employed illegal activities to secure his position of power in the highest office in the land (and the most powerful office in the world), the last boundaries of “respecting” authority were breached. Society, itself, was shaken and many of today’s societal or cultural problems (or perceived problems) are a direct result. Cheer up, at least we avoided Europe’s sixteenth century response to similar disruption where they began murdering people as witches. The notion that “the baby-boom generation was coming of age, and they decided all the old ways had to go and what was good about life in this country then got swept aside along with the bad” is really a pretty simplistic (and erroneous) view of the world that looks as though it had been writrten by a letter to the editor from some prim old lady, insulated from the real world, in 1970 and placed in a time capsule to be dragged up as some sort of Truth, today. I have no problem with you as a poster, **Starving Artist** , but I really wish you had paid a bit more attention to the overall events framing the context of what you have perceived in the world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/122 "2008-09-07T17:47:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, but Cher’s still feeling pretty secure… Until the silicone in her butt starts to pool around her ankles. Hey, **Big Svin**! **Xenoreeno**! Where ya been, suit up, the game is\* on\*! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/123 "2008-09-07T17:49:11Z")
PS: Hey, **Hentor, luci!** Hope all is well with you and yours. Anybody out there no how I can get rid of the “Guest” moniker beside my name? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/124 "2008-09-07T17:52:38Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > You insult a whole group of people who hold one particular political view and then are shocked – shocked, I say, shocked! – when they respond in kind. He’s baaaak! Well, you see old chum, the thead meanders. I would not have expected agreement or even civility about the OP. Once things moved on a discussion of life now vs. the fifties, I seemed to somehow think it could be done without lies, distortions, obfuscation, mischaracterizations, etc., ad fucking nauseum. And I don’t buy for one second your backpedaling assertions that your Klan analogy was simply a metaphor. Virtually every leftie in this thread has been calling me a racist despite clear evidence to the contrary, and you just hopped on the bandwagon. I have retained some residual respect for you because of some of our discussions in the past, but you have utterly destroyed it with that little gem. Now, if you really don’t want to see me back here, don’t post anymore assholish bullshit for at least half an hour so I get out of here, mmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/125 "2008-09-07T17:56:17Z")
Oh, go fuck yourself, you nitwit. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/126 "2008-09-07T17:57:59Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Anybody out there no how I can get rid of the “Guest” moniker beside my name? The answer may (or may not) be in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=481092). ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/127 "2008-09-07T18:03:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have no problem with you as a poster, **Starving Artist** , but I really wish you had paid a bit more attention to the overall events framing the context of what you have perceived in the world. Congratulations on a truly excellent post! Believe it or not, some of what you say may alter some of my perceptions. I’ll come back later and read it more thoroughly when I’m not so pressed for time. As far as whether or not everyone in the boomer generation was acting en masse, I agree. However, it was the loud, vocal, angry faction which, in concert with sympathetic entertainment and news media espousal, that created and was responsible for the upheaval that occurred. And just like here, those of us who advocated a more common-sensical, less destructive way of achieving the goals that were indeed worthwhile were insulted and shouted down, and life as we know it today is the result. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/128 "2008-09-07T18:08:52Z")
So there was this circus midway, big tent in the middle, big sign saying “See a Ninety Five Year Old Man Dive 100 Feet! Into a Foot and a Half of Water! $1!” Sure, a curious crowd gathered into the tent and, yep, there it was, one hundred foot high diving platform towering above a scant wading pool, barely two foot deep. The lights went down, spotlight came on, following a spindly old man as he emerged and hobbled painfully to the center and began dragging himself slowly up the ladder, stopping very few rungs to catch his palsied breath, finally arriving at the top. Where a microphone awaited. “You know, I’m as curious to see you as you are curious to see me, I wanted to have a look, see what kind of people would pay a dollar to watch a crippled old man dive to almost certain death, see what kind of debased people are so immersed in cruelty and heartlessness…” This went on for a while, as the crowd shrank in their seats, studying their shoelaces with rapt absorption with fleeting, sheepish glances to their neighbors. “…and so here we are, our curiosity satisfied. Or at least mine is, how about yours? Any of you want to see me do this, any of you eager to watch me kill myself for your entertainment?” No one said a word, not a sound was made. “Fine, then. Next show, three o’clock.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/129 "2008-09-07T18:10:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Congratulations on a truly excellent post! Believe it or not, some of what you say may alter some of my perceptions. I’ll come back later and read it more thoroughly when I’m not so pressed for time. > > As far as whether or not everyone in the boomer generation was acting en masse, I agree. However, it was the loud, vocal, angry faction which, in concert with sympathetic entertainment and news media espousal, that created and was responsible for the upheaval that occurred. And just like here, those of us who advocated a more common-sensical, less destructive way of achieving the goals that were indeed worthwhile were insulted and shouted down, and life as we know it today is the result. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/130 "2008-09-07T18:17:07Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > PS: > > Hey, **Hentor, luci!** Hope all is well with you and yours. > > Anybody out there no how I can get rid of the “Guest” moniker beside my name? I sure do hope you plan to stay for some time, **Mr. S.** ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/131 "2008-09-07T18:19:43Z")
**Starving for Attention** has such a cartoonish worldview that it might boggle the mind. You have to remember, however, that there has to be someone buying cartoonish books like that numbnut Jonah Goldberg’s _Liberal Fascism_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/132 "2008-09-07T18:19:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I couldn’t agree more, which is why I haven’t done so. What I’m critical of is the _way_ these issues were pursued (and usually by people acting on behalf of the aggrieved parties but not actually a member of them) which resulted in the problems you mention. Can you be more specific about this? What, exactly, about the way the Civil Rights movement operated was destructive? How should it have been executed so as to be less destructive? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/133 "2008-09-07T18:53:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > More false equivalence. Well, I thought that would be a step at a time, not wanting to shake things up to badly and all. But I’ll see you or anyone else in hell if I have to get pregnant again. 😉 > [@](#): > > I couldn’t agree more, which is why I haven’t done so. What I’m critical of is the _way_ these issues were pursued (and usually by people acting on behalf of the aggrieved parties but not actually a member of them) which resulted in the problems you mention. Which um, ways did not meet with your approval? The nonviolent marches of Martin Luther King, Jr? The bra burning ceremonies (great TV, btw) which at most caused some minor stench and smoke? Kent state where trigger happy morons killed kids? I’d like to hear your suggested alternatives, so that we can inform the future colonizers of space on how **Starving Artist** would make a society. > [@](#): > > You make some worthwhile points, but then you go and ruin it all with that last sentence. The desire for a society in which people behave well _is not the same thing as wanting to drag people back to racism and sexism_! > > Damn, I’m getting tired of this! Me, too, so explain yourself more clearly next time. You deplore the loss of civility and decorum in social transactions today? Guess what? So do I. So do most people who can remember a more gracious time (the fact that that grace covered a gaping morass of inequality and oppression is beside the point). I would like nothing more than for “please” and “thank you” to re-enter common discourse. I’d like nothing more than for college female morons to keep their tops on and to stop mugging for the cameras in the name of “independent thinking”. I’d like 99% of the violence on TV to stop now. I’d rather watch people fucking (and most here who know me know this is saying something) than watch yet another person get shot/blown up/maimed on prime TV and cable. I’d love to see some humanity in small little bits every day. I’d like to see some integrity on the part of the press, but also I’d like to see politicians and pundits demonstrate some honesty and moral fiber as well. IMO, Peter Jennings would die of shame if he could come back today, as would Walter Cronkite. It’s disgusting to have a self proclaimed “christian” in the white house who supports the death penalty and isn’t aware of the the simplest of Jesus’ teachings: love thy neighbor as thyself. It’s also reprehensible that this same man vowed to change the tone in Washington, compassionate conservative that he is. He changed it all right–to such divisiveness and rancor that nothing gets done. What a legacy for the guy you all wanted to have a beer with! He’s an aged frat rat with about the same amount of self-awareness and empathy. You all can’t handle a blow job, but can swallow any number of lies, American deaths, the loss of prestige in the world, and the loss of the American dream? And you wonder why we’re mad? > [@](#): > > Exactly, and I know perfectly well that it never happened. Those shows were idealized versions of life in this country and the only people I ever hear from who seem to take them as actually being representative of that time are people who want to ridicule conservatives for it. Again, then you need to be more clear. What else is someone to think if you spout out that you’d like to see the world back in 1960s? That you’d like to see a more measured march to equality? Such statements usually mean that the poster deplores the progress made by those who do not resemble him in race or gender. IOW, sir, they are code for “the good ole days when men were men [and gays so closeted they were in Narnia] and the n\*\*\*s knew their place and your wife could be kept in hers.” To not respond to that sentiment with a hearty fuck you is to be a spineless jerk. Of course people are going to take umbrage. I can’t help but think that you meant for us to, so that you could then sit back and say, “see? My fellow conservatives, I give you exhibits A.B,C,D,E et al.” Hug your smug sanctimony; may it keep you warm at night. I tried to be civil and it got me exactly nowhere. > [@](#): > > Still, all in all, your post was civil, well thought out, and presented with consideration for the other side. I appreciate your taking the time to post it. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/134 "2008-09-07T18:58:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > i am entirely capable of civility, especially when the topic is of no gravity. We can discuss the French Impressionists with calm aplomb, over tea and biscuits with pinkies akimbo, with a delicate sip every now and then. (I hold with Scripture on this, that a love of Monet is the root of all evil. But I am willing to disagree on that point with complete dispassion…) > > A monstrous thing has been done in our name, under our flag. We have sent our best and brightest to kill and die on a fools errand. An untold number of innocent lives have been flushed down the crapper. A hundred thousand? Hundred and fifty? We have no idea, just big, round numbers. Mere statistics, as Stalin would have it. > > The wonder is not that we find it difficult to discuss this without rancor and bitterness, the wonder is we don’t scream ourselves hoarse. The wonder is that we don’t set our hair on fire and run shreiking through the streets, gibbering and greebing about the madness, _the madness_.! > > Utterly calm and reasonable men have turned out beloved country into an engine of horror and despair for untold numbers of innocents. I should engage them and their supporters with polite civililty and murmur the occaissional “Tsk tsk!”? Suggest in quiet tones of respecful dissent that perhaps debasing everything good and noble about my country into a turd wrapped in barbed wire is, maybe, not the best thing evah? So long as I’m respectful of gibbering idiots whose hands are dripping in gore? > > Fuck that shit. If that makes me crazy, go ahead and say so, I ain’t delicate, I’ll get over it. Very eloquently put, **elucidator.** You do live up to your name. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/135 "2008-09-07T19:05:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > i am entirely capable of civility, especially when the topic is of no gravity. We can discuss the French Impressionists with calm aplomb, over tea and biscuits with pinkies akimbo, with a delicate sip every now and then. (I hold with Scripture on this, that a love of Monet is the root of all evil. But I am willing to disagree on that point with complete dispassion…) > > A monstrous thing has been done in our name, under our flag. We have sent our best and brightest to kill and die on a fools errand. An untold number of innocent lives have been flushed down the crapper. A hundred thousand? Hundred and fifty? We have no idea, just big, round numbers. Mere statistics, as Stalin would have it. > > The wonder is not that we find it difficult to discuss this without rancor and bitterness, the wonder is we don’t scream ourselves hoarse. The wonder is that we don’t set our hair on fire and run shreiking through the streets, gibbering and greebing about the madness, _the madness_.! > > Utterly calm and reasonable men have turned out beloved country into an engine of horror and despair for untold numbers of innocents. I should engage them and their supporters with polite civililty and murmur the occaissional “Tsk tsk!”? Suggest in quiet tones of respecful dissent that perhaps debasing everything good and noble about my country into a turd wrapped in barbed wire is, maybe, not the best thing evah? So long as I’m respectful of gibbering idiots whose hands are dripping in gore? > > Fuck that shit. If that makes me crazy, go ahead and say so, I ain’t delicate, I’ll get over it. - Standing O! \* ETA: great thoughtful reply, **Tom** – you da man. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/136 "2008-09-07T19:14:22Z")
Crap, I really gotta read _everything_ before replying – **eleanor** , you’re on fire, babe! And **Mr. S** – so good to see you again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/137 "2008-09-07T19:18:27Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > - Standing O! \*… The “O”, then, is for “ovation”? Rather a pity, that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/138 "2008-09-07T19:22:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The “O”, then, is for “ovation”? Rather a pity, that. If it helps, I was tenting. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/139 "2008-09-07T19:33:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you be more specific about this? What, exactly, about the way the Civil Rights movement operated was destructive? How should it have been executed so as to be less destructive? I can’t speak for Starving Artist, but if people hadn’t done things like bomb churches (killing little girls while they were at it), sic dogs or National Guardsmen on peaceful protesters, beaten and lynched totally innocent people just because they could get away with it (usually), things like that, these important social progressions might have proceeded at a more leisurely and polite pace. Or, wait, no, it’s the people who _wanted_ the social change who were the impolite and destructive ones? Ok, I get confused. Sorry. I have a headache now. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/140 "2008-09-07T19:41:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The “O”, then, is for “ovation”? Rather a pity, that. I could use one of the other Os, btw… 🆒😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360.md?page=8)