# Thanks, TVeblen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360 "2008-09-06T17:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/161 "2008-09-07T23:37:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Can you offer a superior explanation for your impediments? Sure. I’m a grown up who is not ruled by his emotions, and thus, in your eyes, handicapped. It’s a stupid argument. Personally, I’d rather hang out with my Bud, Marcus Aurelius: “If you are pained by external things, it is not they that disturb you, but your own estimate of them. It is within your power to revoke that estimate at any time.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/162 "2008-09-07T23:45:35Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Why can’t you see (or admit) that there is much the same thing going on over on the other side of the aisle. Who says I can’t say or admit that. Of course it’s true. It doesn’t make what happens here right. > [@](#): > > At times I am picking my jaw up off the floor when you or **SA** or **Bricker** play the victim card and express bewilderment re your treatment here. Time after time I have read a thread about politics here, only to read the snide remarks made by conservatives, the broad brush used to condemn all liberals when one person makes an outrageous claim (like Republicans are evil). For you to now hold the GOP and all its attack dogs up as “reasonable” beggers belief. Rush et al are conscienceless, righteous bastards who will do anything to continue their attention whoring. What has the left got? Michael Moore? Al Franken? I don’t see how something Rush Limbaugh says makes it Ok to pile on Bricker. > [@](#): > > When does this pity party end? Of course people shouldn’t call names, but guess what? Our esteemed VP told a venerable senator to go fuck himself. Such a role model he is for youse guys, no? IOW, it happens. Shit happens. Why can you all dish it out and not take it? What kind of pussies are you? You let any number of lies go, but when a Dem havers or changes his mind, you’re on it like white on rice. It’s ok that Cheyney shot an old man in the face during a farce of a hunt (but that absolute silliness is sacred because it involved a gun), but show Kerry actually shooting a rifle and it’s fodder for jeering. You all make no sense to me. If Hilllary comments on the inherent sexism of the press coverage during the everlasting primary, she’s a whiner and a baby. When Sarah whines about the inherent sexism in the 48 hour news cycle post announcement (sorry, meant canonization), it’s vile, unjustified and the press is reprehensible. And we are to accept these double standards as right and just and good. Why? I’m talking about this board, not the senate. What Cheney says or doesn’t say doesn’t make Bricker fair game. > [@](#): > > When o when has the GOP been tolerant of anything or anyone that does not share its worldview? Where o where are the moderate Republicans whom I admired and appreciated because all positions need to be tempered with moderation and common sense. The GOP in its quest for absolute power over the party and the nation pushed aside and silenced those moderates, all to feed the gaping maw of the socially conservative base. The Reps I know are ALL pro-choice. According to your party platform, they are not Republicans. They have no voice. WTF? Why did you all let social conservatives and neo-cons take over your party and ruin its reputation and integrity? When did the rot start–Nixon? or even earlier? I don’t know, but I know Nixon wouldn’t get elected today as a Rep. He was too progressive and liberal. Sad words. I have a theory. The constant attacks polarize and embitter moderates and push them to the fringes. Related topic but I’ve forgotten by now which thread it belongs in: what is with the delusion that the Right doesn’t have a voice in this nation? Rush has been on the air for how long? Anne Coulter is facing menopause and shows no signs of a stake in her heart. Hannity and [sub]Colmes[/sub] are around; Papa Bear is out there, doing his pinhead best. Please stop with the sob story re these few lone voices in the maelstrom of liberal media. It isn’t true. It doesn’t work. It’s bullshit like most of the Republican whining. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/163 "2008-09-07T23:58:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm dude, you had to waterboard YOURSELF to understand that it really WAS torture, 'cause all those folks who’ve had it done to them and said it was TORTURE might have been wrong. > > Nope, no lack of [empathy](http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=empathy&gwp=13) (a, if not the most important, human emotion) there at all. > > CMC +fnord! No. I had to waterboard myself to **know.** I had to do it to speak with authority so that my words would carry weight and be considered. And they were. It was a huge success. That thread was quoted both online and offline in various media outlets. The WSJ and several other publications sought to interview me. When I refused they found their own primary sources and duplicated my effort with the same results. I think I played a part in changing the character of the debate on waterboarding by taking it from the abstract and hypothetical to the personal fatally weakening the arguments of those who said it was human and acceptable. I was a nail in that coffin because of my initiative, and my way with words that resonated with others. I changed the world just a little bit. I pushed it just a little bit in the right direction. That’s why I had to do it. That’s what I actually accomplished. I did it by creating empathy, by making people understand and feel and sympathize with what it would be like to be waterboarded. Don’t presume to lecture me on the subject of empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/164 "2008-09-07T23:59:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Sure. I’m a grown up who is not ruled by his emotions, and thus, in your eyes, handicapped. It’s a stupid argument. Again, you are pretending not to get it, I assume, or are just too fucking dense. It is not a sign of maturity to fail to feel pangs of conscience. It’s a sign of psychopathy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/165 "2008-09-07T23:59:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm dude, you had to waterboard YOURSELF to understand that it really WAS torture, 'cause all those folks who’ve had it done to them and said it was TORTURE might have been wrong. > > Nope, no lack of [empathy](http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=empathy&gwp=13) (a, if not the most important, human emotion) there at all. > > CMC +fnord! Actually, to be fair, I give him major props for that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/166 "2008-09-08T00:04:09Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. I had to waterboard myself to **know.** I had to do it to speak with authority so that my words would carry weight and be considered. > > And they were. It was a huge success. That thread was quoted both online and offline in various media outlets. The WSJ and several other publications sought to interview me. When I refused they found their own primary sources and duplicated my effort with the same results. I think I played a part in changing the character of the debate on waterboarding by taking it from the abstract and hypothetical to the personal fatally weakening the arguments of those who said it was human and acceptable. I was a nail in that coffin because of my initiative, and my way with words that resonated with others. > > I changed the world just a little bit. I pushed it just a little bit in the right direction. > > That’s why I had to do it. > > That’s what I actually accomplished. I did it by creating empathy, by making people understand and feel and sympathize with what it would be like to be waterboarded. > Don’t presume to lecture me on the subject of empathy. Wait, you think that demostrates empathy? Some people don’t need to subject themselves to physical torture to understand empathy. If you think you garnered attention for yourself or for the subject of waterboarding, I have to lecture you that that is not empathy either. Yes, and Reader’s Digest wanted to publish your piece on attack of the blimps too, right? Anyone want to publish your racist grandfather piece? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/167 "2008-09-08T00:05:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Who says I can’t say or admit that. Of course it’s true. It doesn’t make what happens here right. Well, that was a start-the beginning of an admission of possibility of ownership of the problem. “What happens here” is that both side snipe and snark to the detriment of true communication. And there are jerks on both sides that can poison a good discussion. No argument there. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how something Rush Limbaugh says makes it Ok to pile on Bricker. > > I’m talking about this board, not the senate. What Cheney says or doesn’t say doesn’t make Bricker fair game. Pardon me, I thought this was a complaint about how conservatives were treated in general. If **Bricker** defended the VP in his macho crap, (and I am not saying he did or didn’t–I don’t know), then he would deserve the same contempt that the VP engendered. If he said Cheney was a jerk, I’d heartily concur and respect him a bit more as someone who can see his party’s representatives objectively. If you or [fill in name of conservative Doper here] come in and defend Rush, despite cites and evidence that Rush is talking out his ass, then you deserve the same jeering that Rush does. I am not saying you have done so (I have no idea)–I’m just making a point. There have been many threads that have questioned and found policies/actions of Bush et al to be flawed, harmful or just plain stupid, but with the exception of **AirmanDoors** (or whatever his name is), I have not read one conservative post that says hey, we fucked up on Afghanistan or not allowing pictures of the military coffins does look bad, no matter how well intentioned or I’d have been more comfortable if Bush had stopped reading that damned book to those first graders on 9/11 and taken charge or [fill in the blank]. Now maybe you and yours have said all this and more and I’ve just missed it. If so, I apologize. But I scan through more than I post in GD and the Pit, and I tend to open political threads, and I have missed the middle ground so far. > [@](#): > > I have a theory. The constant attacks polarize and embitter moderates and push them to the fringes. Well, no shit, Sherlock. I have no problem meeting you civilly. I will say I don’t trust you or other conservatives here to actually put your money where your mouth is. But I am willing to go ahead, despite my misgivings. If I say I can see where some limits on abortion are a good thing, will you agree that some limits on the purchasing of firearms is not all bad? I wonder. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/168 "2008-09-08T00:09:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. I had to waterboard myself to **know.** I had to do it to speak with authority so that my words would carry weight and be considered. > > And they were. It was a huge success. That thread was quoted both online and offline in various media outlets. The WSJ and several other publications sought to interview me. When I refused they found their own primary sources and duplicated my effort with the same results. I think I played a part in changing the character of the debate on waterboarding by taking it from the abstract and hypothetical to the personal fatally weakening the arguments of those who said it was human and acceptable. I was a nail in that coffin because of my initiative, and my way with words that resonated with others. > > I changed the world just a little bit. I pushed it just a little bit in the right direction. > > That’s why I had to do it. > > That’s what I actually accomplished. I did it by creating empathy, by making people understand and feel and sympathize with what it would be like to be waterboarded. > Don’t presume to lecture me on the subject of empathy. Actually your whole experience could best be described as “Attention Whoring.” Because sure as shit you didn’t gain any empathy towards those it is (indiscriminately) used on. Otherwise why support a candidate who agrees (after flip-flopping) with the same disgusting method? Face it **Scylla** , you’re scum. Win or lose you’ll remain as much. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/169 "2008-09-08T00:14:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m a grown up who is not ruled by his emotions Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/170 "2008-09-08T00:22:58Z")
Deleted post. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/171 "2008-09-08T00:25:25Z")
So, no cite? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/172 "2008-09-08T00:27:53Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yup. That one got inquiries as well. > > It’s gratifying to me that so many things I have written have been picked up and quoted and linked to and published both on and offline. Since you bring it up, it’s especially gratifying in comparison to say… your accomplishments here. > > See ya. I don’t make up little stories on an internet message board and call them accomplishments. I publish elsewhere. But hey, congrats on everything you’ve achieved. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/173 "2008-09-08T00:36:47Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Well, that was a start-the beginning of an admission of possibility of ownership of the problem. “What happens here” is that both side snipe and snark to the detriment of true communication. And there are jerks on both sides that can poison a good discussion. No argument there. Ok. > [@](#): > > Pardon me, I thought this was a complaint about how conservatives were treated in general. No not really. As you say, it’s both ways generally. I’m speaking more specifically about this board, and more specifically still, about Bricker. > [@](#): > > If **Bricker** defended the VP in his macho crap, (and I am not saying he did or didn’t–I don’t know), then he would deserve the same contempt that the VP engendered. If he said Cheney was a jerk, I’d heartily concur and respect him a bit more as someone who can see his party’s representatives objectively. I disagree. For example, I’m speaking hypothetically, I’m not familiar with the incident. Let us say, Bricker has a cite or an argument that suggests Cheney was provoked or justified in his statement. It could be something strong like saying that Cheney only said what he said because the Senator called his daughter a Dyke, or it could be weak. You really can’t evaluate the argument unless you examine it. To do so you need to give fair consideration to Bricker when he is bringing you that argument. If you are dismissive of him simply because you feel strongly that Cheney was wrong in saying what he said and you treat Bricker poorly, than you both lose. You lose the possibility of gaining new data and enlightenment, or of changing Bricker’s mind if his argument is weak. More importantly you create further badwill which will doubtless reverberate down the road. More importantly still, it is just better to be nice. Attacking others whether or not you feel you are justified is usually a bad idea. > [@](#): > > If you or [fill in name of conservative Doper here] come in and defend Rush, despite cites and evidence that Rush is talking out his ass, then you deserve the same jeering that Rush does. I am not saying you have done so (I have no idea)–I’m just making a point. I don’t think it’s a black and white world. I’ve listened to Rush. He’s good. He’s entertaining. He’s said some good things. He’s also said some bad things. He was thoughts and ideas, some of which are worthy of discussion. Small minds discuss people. Larger minds discuss events. Larger still discuss ideas. Why not elevate the discusion beyond the “this person sucks. No, he’s cool. No, he sucks” level to one more meaningful? > [@](#): > > There have been many threads that have questioned and found policies/actions of Bush et al to be flawed, harmful or just plain stupid, but with the exception of **AirmanDoors** (or whatever his name is), I have not read one conservative post that says hey, we fucked up on Afghanistan or not allowing pictures of the military coffins does look bad, no matter how well intentioned or I’d have been more comfortable if Bush had stopped reading that damned book to those first graders on 9/11 and taken charge or [fill in the blank]. I concluded that Bush lied about the WMDs and remarked so. > [@](#): > > Now maybe you and yours have said all this and more and I’ve just missed it. If so, I apologize. But I scan through more than I post in GD and the Pit, and I tend to open political threads, and I have missed the middle ground so far. Understandable. There’s not much of it. That’s for sure. Well, no shit, Sherlock. I have no problem meeting you civilly. I will say I don’t trust you or other conservatives here to actually put your money where your mouth is. But I am willing to go ahead, despite my misgivings. If I say I can see where some limits on abortion are a good thing, will you agree that some limits on the purchasing of firearms is not all bad? I wonder. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/174 "2008-09-08T00:37:59Z")
I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but enough already with the name calling. We get that you think he’s scum/an ass/a douche/a whatever. Calling him that doesn’t make him go away and doesn’t make any of this better. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion and feelings, but can we not share quite so much? Thanks. Don’t ruin it, **Scylla-** -I was trying here. And now you come out with some disingenuous stuff yourself: Cheney told Leahy to go fuck himself on the floor of the senate, not because Leahy called his daughter a dyke. IIRC, it was an unprovoked attack due to the nerve of Senator Leahy for addressing The Grand Vizier, er, VP. The rudeness and incivility was all on the VP. But he was defended here, IMS. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/175 "2008-09-08T00:44:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but enough already with the name calling. We get that you think he’s scum/an ass/a douche/a whatever. > Calling him that doesn’t make him go away and doesn’t make any of this better. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion and feelings, but can we not share quite so much? Thanks. No. He is partly the reason hundreds of thousands are dead – most of them innocent. IOW, _he is scum._ ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/176 "2008-09-08T00:55:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No. He is partly the reason hundreds of thousands are dead – most of them innocent. > IOW, _he is scum._ The opinions of someone from a self-avowed BananaLand do not count, at least as far as our President goes. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/177 "2008-09-08T01:02:06Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Don’t ruin it, **Scylla-** -I was trying here. And now you come out with some disingenuous stuff yourself: Cheney told Leahy to go fuck himself on the floor of the senate, not because Leahy called his daughter a dyke. IIRC, it was an unprovoked attack due to the nerve of Senator Leahy for addressing The Grand Vizier, er, VP. The rudeness and incivility was all on the VP. But he was defended here, IMS. I wasn’t being disingenuous. I said, I wasn’t familiar with the incident and was being strictly hypothetical. I’m sure it occured exactly as you said. And, I sincerely appreciate your goodwill, and will do my best not to give you reason to regret extending it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/178 "2008-09-08T01:03:11Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > The opinions of someone from a self-avowed BananaLand do not count, at least as far as our President goes. I don’t think it’s location that devalues his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/179 "2008-09-08T01:06:34Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I don’t think it’s location that devalues his opinion. Maybe not, but his anti-American trolling certainly does. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360/180 "2008-09-08T01:08:49Z")
**Starving Artist** , **Scylla** , et. al., is the way **Carol Stream** acts toward liberals your idea of how you would like liberals to act toward you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thanks-tveblen/462360.md?page=10)