# That black oval that periodically appears at the top-right of a motion-picture print? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 31, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789 "2002-12-31T01:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/21 "2002-12-31T06:31:43Z")
Larry, You gotta watch Fight Club a couple times to really catch all the little stuff going on. Its one of My all time favorite movies. ---
**Author:** ![djbdjb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@djbdjb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djbdjb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/22 "2002-12-31T07:13:42Z")
I don’t think anybody answered the question “why do they still keep putting them in if nobody changes reels anymore?” ---
**Author:** ![Keith\_Berry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@Keith\_Berry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keith_Berry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/23 "2002-12-31T08:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by djbdjb \* > \*\*I don’t think anybody answered the question “why do they still keep putting them in if nobody changes reels anymore?” \*\* I’m sure there’s still some run-down and unmodernized theatres around that still do change-overs manually. Though even automatic change-overs can be rough. I recently saw _Gangs Of New York_ at a Hoyts, and every reel change was very noticeable…a slight jitter, a audio pop, and a complete change in the color timing of the print mid-scene. ---
**Author:** ![Keith\_Berry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@Keith\_Berry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keith_Berry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/24 "2002-12-31T08:04:28Z")
P.S. I wasn’t implying that the projection system was the old switchover type; what I meant to say that the reel splices were very noticeable, and had the same imagined effect as one projector being shut off and another being activated. ---
**Author:** ![Rogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rogg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/25 "2002-12-31T10:22:25Z")
I’m glad to finally know what those ovals REALLY are! I thought I already knew: There’s a similar oval that is used to patch knot holes in plywood. You use the same size patch for a wide range of different knot hole sizes. I thought the film oval was the same thing, perhaps patching a genuine cigarette burn… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/26 "2002-12-31T12:20:34Z")
Another former projectionist here. In my training they were called changeover marks, one 10 seconds in advance, the next three frames before the end of the reel. They still exist for several reasons. 1. Of lot of projectors in the world are not capable of handling really large reels (yes, I know the Googleplex can, but we’re talking about the whole world). 2. Films are still shipped on small reels. The marks do make film splicing a bit easier. 3. For the cheaper, one or two screen theaters, the marks allow the film to be shown without advance preparation. You do have to pay someone to splice it together in advance, after all. 4. This isn’t applicable to new films, but on certain rare films, we aren’t allowed to cut into them for film preservation reasons. A lot of “art film” theaters don’t splice for this reason. When I worked as a projectionnist at the National Gallery of Art, we had specific handling instructions from the film Curator for each film. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/27 "2002-12-31T16:44:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keith Berry \* > \*\* > Though even automatic change-overs can be rough. I recently saw _Gangs Of New York_ at a Hoyts, and every reel change was very noticeable…a slight jitter, a audio pop, and a complete change in the color timing of the print mid-scene. \*\* Not sure about the color change, but the jitter is because either a) their film gates are too tight (where the film passes through the projector in front of the aperature plate) and/or b) they weren’t the first theater to get the film and the didn’t cut off the previous theater’s splicing tape when re-assembling the print (thus making the splice twice as thick.) Also the audio pop is because they’re using colored splicing tape (which is easier to see when you take the film apart) instead of clear. Sound is read optically and when the colored tape passes through the (sound) lens there’s a dropout. Tsk tsk! ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/28 "2002-12-31T20:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*_That_ is brilliant. I’m surprised that distributors don’t scream their heads off about it, though. (Not that they _ought_ to, but I can imagine litigation claiming that simultaneous showings in divided theatres requires the operators to pay for the use of two prints of the film…) \*\* Why would they? In the Vancouver area, most of the cinemas are _owned_ by the major distributors. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/29 "2002-12-31T21:23:16Z")
Hardcore movie buff checking in. Re the issue of sequentially running a single print through multiple auditoriums: Some distributors _do_ raise a fuss. It depends on the deal struck with the exhibitor, e.g. whether or not the fee paid for the film (the “rental”) is by individual print or for a cut of the box office. Further, because this treatment is obviously much harder on the physical print, presentation quality begins to suffer more quickly; when _Phantom Menace_ came out, Lucasfilm absolutely prohibited the practice, requiring one print for each auditorium. I don’t know if they repeated this demand for _Clones._ Regarding this: > [@](#): > > I am often distracted by the horizontally-oriented oval that appears at intervals in the top-right corner when you’re watching a film. As a longtime filmgoer with literally thousands of movies under my belt, I can say that the obviousness of the reel marker varies inversely with the quality of the film. The more involved you are with the movie, the less likely you are to be letting your attention wander, and the more bored you are, the likelier it is your eye will be caught by an extraneous element. I can tell when a movie isn’t working for me when I notice each and every reel marker. As for the question of why they’re still put on the film, even though the big chains don’t really need them, **yojimboguy** is correct: Not every exhibitor can handle the big platters. Further, if you go to a film festival, the projectionist has to deal with a large number of international and/or low-budget movies that either don’t use that technology in their home country or couldn’t afford to set it up that way with the lab. Hence, the system still has a fair amount of practicability, and persists. ---
**Author:** ![CaptBilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CaptBilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptBilly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/30 "2002-12-31T21:43:04Z")
When I was in high school we would watch one reel of a movie every day during lunch I got so used to jumping up and grabbing my books that I did the same thing when I went to a theatre my, date thought I was crazy. Capt Billy ---
**Author:** ![STARR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@STARR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/STARR)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/31 "2003-01-01T01:32:01Z")
Yes, the dot/spot/?? did mean time to change reels. They burned sticks of sulpher? or something to make a light bright enough to project the film to a screen. Lots of what goes on in movie theaters is due to the unions still requiring certain people to do certain jobs…like changing reels, ‘stringng’ the screen, etc. Stuff that is no longer done…or was not done when I worked as an usherette WAY back in the 60s…LOOP Theatre downtown Chicago.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/32 "2003-01-01T03:43:28Z")
I was a projectionist on the student film board at Iowa State for a while. We actually had two separate 16-mm projectors side-by-side in the projection room; in setting up, the first thing to do was turn them both on and get them aimed at the same spot. You’d sit there with one hand on each power switch, and when you saw the second oval you’d wait a second or two and then simultaneously turn off Projector One and turn on Projector Two, then quickly reach down and flip the switch that changed the sound from one projector to the other. After a switch, you’d remove the finished reel from the active projector and put the next reel onto it, then get ready for the next switch. It was kind of fun, actually. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/33 "2003-01-01T08:32:22Z")
Any Dopers remember the _Crusader Rabbit_ cartoons? On the Sheriff John cartoon show in the mid-50s. At the very end of a cartoon, with the few bars of closing music playing, a _white circle_ would appear in the upper right. Maybe this was to signal the projectionist in a movie theater or on TV, to remove the rell or shut off the projector; actually I think _Crusader Rabbit_ was the first cartoon series specifically tailored for television. ---
**Author:** ![STARR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@STARR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/STARR)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/34 "2003-01-02T00:21:51Z")
I vaguely remember Crusader Rabbit… Anyone remember the name of that Saturday morning show… where you could send in and get a plastic cover, and special markers, for your TV screen…and help the cartoon hero by drawing things on the plastic, e.g. bridges to ‘help’ him cross a river? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/35 "2003-01-02T09:20:10Z")
I remember, STARR. _Winky Dink and You._ I actually didn’t see this until it was rerun in the 70s; then it was annoying because I was in my early 20s then and waiting for something else to appear. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![STARR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@STARR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/STARR)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/36 "2003-01-03T05:05:29Z")
Dougie\_Monty… Were you saying that the cartoon show I was trying to remember was Winky Dink and You?? I cant remember a name like that…but that could have been it. And then there was GUMBY…and the Buster Brown show–did that one have “FROGGY”? Cant believe that I cant remember all those great programs… and they say the body goes first.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/37 "2003-01-03T06:08:39Z")
Two bits of change-over mark trivia: On Technicolor movies made before 1955, in which three printing matrices were made from the negative, one each for the three primary colors, the change-over mark was made on the matrix that printed red. Thus the change-over mark in pre-1955 Technicolor movies is red, not the usual white. The film restorers for the Criterion Collection of classic movies on home video go through each movie and digitally remove thousands of scratches, tears, dirt, and other unwanted aritfacts on the film frames, including removing the change-over marks. They do this by copying the same area of the frame from a previous or subsequent frame, and pasting it over the change-over mark. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/38 "2003-01-04T15:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > What I find maddening about it is that when I mention it to my friends, they invariably don’t know what I’m talking about. It tends to make me nervous when I can apparently see something that others don’t. It mystifies me how anyone can miss it, it’s pretty big, even if it is there for only 1/24th of a second. The mark is deliberately made to look like a film flaw. Who notices those much? But, in the Nitpick Dept., I believe it would last for 3/24 of a second, as the mark is repeated for 3 frames so the projectionist doesn’t miss it. Somebody wiser than I might be able to confirm this or correct me. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > The film restorers for the Criterion Collection of classic movies on home video go through each movie and digitally remove…the change-over marks… Gee, that seems like _bastardizing_ the original, not restoring it! To me, those marks were part of the theater experience! > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by STARR_ > …They burned sticks of sulpher? or something to make a light bright enough to project the film to a screen… The light source was an “arc light”, not a sealed, enclosed bulb. An electric arc was formed between two electrodes; as the tips slowly burned away, an automatic screw mechanism (usually) kept the distance between them constant and the light bright. Anybody know if this is still the light source today? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yojimboguy_ > …they were called changeover marks, one 10 seconds in advance, the next three frames before the end of the reel… Nitpick Dept. again, sorry. I think that was three _seconds_, not three _frames._ Three frames, or 3/24 of a second, would be an awfully short time for a human to react before the screen went all-white. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Keith Barry_ > …every reel change was very noticeable…a complete change in the color timing of the print mid-scene… If you mean color _balance,_ that is most likely caused by the changeover from one reel to the other. Not all reels of film are printed using the same chemical bath, or even at the same time, place or lab. If Reel #1 came from one date and one lab, and Reel #2 came from another (perhaps as a replacement), the color differences between them can be noticeable at switch time. The human eye can compensate for white balance within a single reel, but the sudden change can be jarring, at least to someone of the photographic persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![SC\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/39 "2003-01-04T15:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > **The mark is deliberately made to look like a film flaw. Who notices those much?** Film flaw that’s a perfect oval, equidistant from the top and right edges of the screen, flashed twice in rapid sequence every 20 minutes? And almost invariably the second time it’s flashed, there’s a cut to a new scene or at least a new camera angle? It was very noticable to me, even before I had a short stint as a projectionist at campus theater of my university. ---
**Author:** ![Masuro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Masuro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Masuro)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789/40 "2003-01-04T15:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tangent \* > \*\*I noticed a very easy to spot “cigarette burn” in _The Two Towers_. It is so noticable because it occurs in a scene where one of the Nazgul is flying away into the distance in the top right corner of the screen and the oval suddenly pops on screen right where the Nazgul is/was. I can’t remember whether it was the scene where Frodo and co. are in the Dead Marshes or when they are in Osgiliath. Anyway, **Larry Mudd** , tell your friends to look for it if they are watching that movie. \*\* I noticed it in Two Towers for the first time in my life. In the oval was a capital K followed by a dash and a three digit number. Like this - K-245. Don’t know what that means but perhaps the K meant the Korean version of the film with subtitles (I live in Korea). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-black-oval-that-periodically-appears-at-the-top-right-of-a-motion-picture-print/145789.md?page=3)