# That "Funky" Note On Für Elise ("Bagatelle In A Minor" - Beethoven) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422 "2010-01-02T19:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/1 "2010-01-02T19:38:31Z")
Here’s a link to the piece in part: [Für Elise - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCr_Elise) Scroll down a bit and on the right, you’ll see a little “midi” player. Click on it and take a listen and tell me what you think please? That little “(off-key”?) note has always kinda puzzled me. Like it isn’t supposed to be there, maybe his finger slipped and the note went sharp, he liked it and decided to “leave it in”? (Musicologists, please note that I am primarily a drummer and all my notes are pretty much “straight across”, which is to say, while I can read _some_ percussion, I cannot read piano, even though it’s a percussion instrument!:rolleyes:), so please forgive me if I’m missing something which should be obvious to me, okay? :)) > **[Beethoven, Ludwig van - Fur Elise Sheet music for Piano - 8notes.com](https://www.8notes.com/scores/457.asp)** > > Beethoven, Ludwig van Fur Elise Sheet music for Piano - 8notes.com Okay, so I wouldn’t appear _completely_ dumb, I did some reading and the wiki article links to something called a “pedal point”: > **[Pedal point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point)** > > In music, a pedal point (also pedal note, organ point, pedal tone, or pedal) is a sustained tone, typically in the bass, during which at least one foreign (i.e. dissonant) harmony is sounded in the other parts. A pedal point sometimes functions as a "non-chord tone", placing it in the categories alongside suspensions, retardations, and passing tones. However, the pedal point is unique among non-chord tones, "in that it begins on a consonance, sustains (or repeats) through another chord as a disso... Could this be what I am hearing? I’ve just always loved that song and wondered what that note was doing _in_ it, and I once dreamed that as he was composing in the heat of Summer ( I don’t think I’ve ever found exactly in what _season_ he wrote it, but in my dream it’s Summer) and a drop of sweat might have blurred the ink so that it created that “note” (I know, I’m a bit of a romantic, sue me! :D), and the next time he saw it, he played it and liked it. I also like the “mystery” of “Elise” and have done extensive reading on her and him - being that he is my favorite composer, finally concluding (like most everyone else, I guess) that it was originally entitled “Für _Therese_”. Therese being Therese Malfatti von Rohrenbach zu Dezza (1792–1851), one of the women he was involved with romantically (possibly unrequited). I’d like to read your opinions, and thanks! Quasi ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/2 "2010-01-02T20:45:48Z")
Hmm, maybe I just know the piece too well, but I’m not hearing anything that sounds funky. Can you give us a timestamp using that little player for the note in question? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/3 "2010-01-02T21:34:15Z")
Beethoven liked to do that. Listen to the 8th symphony. It’s an extended joke on that very idea. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/4 "2010-01-02T22:00:30Z")
I wondered the same thing about the funky rhythm in the Ode to Joy (last mvt. of the 9th Symph.). You’ve got these lyrics: [QUOTE=Beethoven and Schiller] Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt. [/QUOTE] The word “Alle” is started early and then held longer than you would expect it to be. I’d expect something like that as a variation on the normal melody, but I’ve always thought it was odd that they sing it that way every time. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/5 "2010-01-03T00:10:39Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Hmm, maybe I just know the piece too well, but I’m not hearing anything that sounds funky. Can you give us a timestamp using that little player for the note in question? Okay, hang on. I’ll see if I can do that. (Gonna put ya on “hold” for a few! 😉 Okay… At :27 seconds on _this_ midi file: [http://www.forelise.com/midi](http://www.forelise.com/midi) It then comes back around again in another measure… and again… Almost as if his cat stepped on the keys! 😉 Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/6 "2010-01-03T01:02:51Z")
**thirdname** , I hate to admit it, since I consider myself somewhat of an amateur Beethoven “scholar”, but I just _had_ to refresh my memory on those lyrics.🙂 What a great _segue_, (or whatever ya callit) on my word “funky” in that first line (last word) in the lyrics!:D:D:D As for the “Alle”, maybe it was one of those idiosyncrasies of his? And didn’t one of the films deal with that, IIRC? Didn’t the actor who played B~ go “ballistic” when the singers _didn’t_ “draw” that word out? Sorry, my mammaries ain’t what they used to be, so someone please jump in here and correct me. I have loved The Maestro since I was a child, and now that I am older, I kind of “identify” with him. Not _musically_, and certainly not with the artistic genius he was, but because he was so misunderstood by so many, although he had good intentions and couldn’t help it if he sometimes was an asshole! 🙂 I _still_ remember that scene (forgot the film, though) in which one of his friends said something while B’s back was turned, and he whirled around and yelled, "I _heard_ that, you _ass_. Got lots of books on his life, but I am still missing those books which are facsimilies (is that correct?) of the little notebooks he used to write in. I also am a member of a website devoted to Ludwig van Beethoven, and I go there from time to time to see what’s “new”. Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/7 "2010-01-03T01:12:24Z")
I don’t disrespect your gifts as a drummer, but it’s really not reasonable to ask people to (a) download a MIDI file and (b) import the MIDI file into a software synthesizer in order to get an answer to a question that could be quickly answered by using (a) standard music-theoretical terminology, (b) a measure reference from a score, © a time stamp on a live recording via YouTube or something, or, even, (d) a decent layperson’s description of the change in question. You probably be a bomb drummer but it’s questions like this that make the rest of us wonder what’s really going on upstairs. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/8 "2010-01-03T01:17:17Z")
Not much, these days, I’m afraid. And I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong. Sorry. Q ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/9 "2010-01-03T01:18:26Z")
I think the note he’s talking about is played at 0:33 and 0:55 in this video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ) ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/10 "2010-01-03T01:29:59Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > I think the note he’s talking about is played at 0:33 and 0:55 in this video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ) Thanks, **thirdname** , and in retrospect, yeah, I _should_ have gone to the Tube first, but I guess I got so excited (and in a hurry) about sharing this, that it completely slipped my mind to that. I don’t often get a chance to be “on track” (for want a of a better word) and talk about Beethoven or drumming, that I sometimes let things “run away” with me. Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/11 "2010-01-03T01:32:09Z")
Sorry that my post came off as extra-assholish. There really wasn’t any intention to be a cunt on my part. I don’t know about **thirdname** ’s clip – all I heard was the tonic at those marks, or maybe the fifth. Nice, straight performance, though. I’m guessing someone could write a book or many on how frustrating it is to _recognize_ or _know_ something without being able to quite get across what that thing is. My sympathies, but I’d like to help if I can. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/12 "2010-01-03T01:36:45Z")
Not a prob, **Jaledin** , and thanks for the answer which sounds like it comes from a “real” musician. 🙂 Got any of your stuff on YouTube? Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/13 "2010-01-03T01:40:51Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > I think the note he’s talking about is played at 0:33 and 0:55 in this video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ) [http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/pdf/beethoven/furelise.pdf](http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/pdf/beethoven/furelise.pdf) (13th full measure or 3rd measure on the third line, if you prefer) It’s a variation on the motif. The piece begins with that diminished second trill (e d# d# e) he departs from that theme with the descending thing (e-fed edc dcb) and returns to the origninal motif with a flourish–a four octave jump basedon the first note (e)–and then picks up the original motif by dropping the trill down an octave. So he jumps up to a high e and then plays the d# an augmented octave below (so it’s a big out-of tune-sounding jump, but it’s based on that half-step pattern that begins the piece). This jump sounds a bit odd, but in context it’s just a variation on what he showed us at the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/14 "2010-01-03T01:41:08Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > At :27 seconds on _this_ midi file: > [Free Für Elise (For Elise) MIDI File Download](http://www.forelise.com/midi) There’s nothing “off key” about that note; it’s just an E (the root of the dominant chord) jumping up an octave. It’s that sudden jump into the high register when no other note in the whole piece is in that octave that may grate a bit on your ear. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/15 "2010-01-03T01:54:29Z")
I just got on the out-of-tune piano at my sister’s house to verify using my sketchy memory – since we’re just riffing now I’d lay on that it’s probably just that jumping up on the octaves of the dom7 root, just like **Biffy…** said. Anyway, who knows. Good topic, though, and great tune. If you want to be MINDFREAKED by similar stuff, just check out Liszt’s 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (in C# major?). It’s like the king of jumping octaves on piano, and it’s also in WB cartoons and stuff. Here’s a good (:smack:) one: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no). ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/16 "2010-01-03T01:54:37Z")
Thanks very much, and again, I didn’t mean to offend anyone with my poor choice of words. “Off-key”, for instance: Well see, that’s what has _endeared_ this piece to me, and I appreciate your putting into musical terminology what I could not. Also That LvB website I referred to is at [http://www.forum-lvbeethoven.com/Forum](http://www.forum-lvbeethoven.com/Forum) and we are currently kicking Anton Schindler’s ass! [Anton Schindler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schindler)! 😉 Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/17 "2010-01-03T02:11:01Z")
Well, it could be “off-key” or “off-minor,” or “off-swell,” or “off-meter,” or even, if it’s a boss talking, “off-message.” I’m glad to see some talk of _music_ around here – I would definitely have ponied up here a long time ago if it didn’t seem like every music thread tanked after a few or a few dozen posts. I still want to know exactly what part of “Fu:r Elise” grabbed your ear, though…but it may not be possible given that there isn’t speak-o-phono-vision here. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/18 "2010-01-03T03:08:23Z")
Here again, it’s tough for someone like me to explain, but I loved the piece for its _simplicity_ to begin with, and then its _complexity_ (to me, anyway) as it progressed. I watched **thirdname’s** YouTube clip (showing the hands), and I saw _exactly_ what the pianist was doing and where **thirdname** placed his “time-stamp”, and I just find it so _awesome_ that the piece took that little “turn” there! It just caught my ear, so to speak, and the more I played it on my cd, the more I looked forward to _hearing_ it!🙂 It’s kinda like Phil Collins’ “In The Air Tonight”. You know: when he goes “crazy” in that drum sequence? No matter where I am or what I’m doing, when I hear that song, I go into my “air drum mode” and raise my hands to go into that “ **Dooh** -dooh- dooh-dooh-doo-doo-dooh-dooh **BOMM-BOMM** ” thing. Yeah, I get “looks”, but I just can’t help it.🙂 Same with “Für Elise” (kinda). I don’t play “air-piano”, but I DO get this grin on my face when I hear what I call that little “nuance” (again, PLEASE excuse the word!:)). Sorry, **Jaledin** , but that’s the best I can do, and if I may? Please don’t call yourself a “cunt”, okay? You can disagree with me _anytime_ you want. These days, I consider myself a “sponge” and want to absorb as much as I can. Even if that means looking at the “other side” and considering the point made. I just turned 60. If I am VERY lucky, I’ll have 15 more good years on the planet, and I don’t intend to spend them pissed off at people just because they don’t share my point of view! It’s a waste of time and emotion for me now. I’m off to take a look at your Liszt link, and am looking forward to smiling at your description of it. You have a good night, and feel free to disagree with me (and set me straight) without calling yourself names, okay? 😉 Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/19 "2010-01-03T04:14:43Z")
Is that the place where it goes up by octaves on E? That was always my favorite part of the piece to play. Made me feel like Liberace. Or something. Liberace without the sequins, though. You want to hear some crazy Ludwig von, listen to the 32nd Sonata, Opus 111. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/20 "2010-01-03T04:31:52Z")
my favorite part to play comes at 2:14 of the youtube video - the string of heavy-handed a’s on the left hand. i always felt it was the most beetoven-ish part of the song and i play it with more flourish than necessary. lots of drama leading up to the run before settling back to the usual refrain. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422.md?page=2)