# That "Funky" Note On Für Elise ("Bagatelle In A Minor" - Beethoven) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422 "2010-01-02T19:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/21 "2010-01-03T05:29:16Z")
**See**?🙂 I _knew_ that if some ol “clod-hopper” like me checked in on The Maestro via this thread, I’d get some REAL musicians to explain this stuff to me!😃 **Gfactor** : Could I have your permission to copy, paste and _learn_ as dialogue what you wrote down there?😉 Might buy me some time if I ever got hospitalized _permanently_!:eek: “It’s a variation on the motif. The piece begins with that diminished second trill (e d# d# e) he departs from that theme with the descending thing (e-fed edc dcb) and returns to the origninal motif with a flourish–a four octave jump basedon the first note (e)–and then picks up the original motif by dropping the trill down an octave. So he jumps up to a high e and then plays the d# an augmented octave below (so it’s a big out-of tune-sounding jump, but it’s based on that half-step pattern that begins the piece). This jump sounds a bit odd, but in context it’s just a variation on what he showed us at the beginning.” Of **COURSE** I’m just kidding y’all! 😃 I’m gonna stick here for a _lonnnnnng_ time, and when I _do_ go, I’ll find a way to get back here and be the asshole I once was! BWAHHAAAAHHHAAAAA! :):)🙂 Seriously, though: I love and have always LOVED The Maestro, and I appreciate any and ALL insight I can get into his works and life! Beethoven, Ludwig van (1770-1827): “Friends applaud, the comedy is over.” Q ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/22 "2010-01-03T06:44:09Z")
I think the word you guys are looking for is _dissonance_. The half-step comes across as dissonant simply because it’s not part of any chord that we’re expecting. Our ears / brains, after decades of listening to Western music, are conditioned to hear certain chords even when there are none accompanying the melody. There are certain things we _expect_. A melody is based on a main key, with prominent chords usually being I (the primary major or minor chord, on the tonic – the first note of the scale) and V ((aka the dominant, usually major, based on the fifth note of the scale and usually leading back to the tonic). The other two biggie chords are IV (set on the fouth note of the main key’s scale) and VI (set on the sixth note). For exampe, in a piece set in C major, the I, V, IV and VI chords are C major, G major, F major, and A minor. In a piece such as _Fur Elise_ set in A minor, these chords would be A minor, E major, D minor, and F major. ANYway, throughout that whole sequence you’re talking about, **Quasi** , the implied chord most Westerners will likely be “hearing” is V7, which (since the piece is in A minor) is E major with an added seventh. The notes in E7are E, G-sharp, B and D. Pay attention to that last one, 'cause it’s the kicker. Any notes played that _are not_ in that implied chord will sound dissonant and jarring – that’s how powerful the mind is. At the point we’re talking about, the melody is playing a repeated D-sharp - E as a sort of trill. (It’s pretty much the theme of the piece.) That D-sharp is jangling against the implied D natural we’re all hearing in the E7 chord, mentioned above. And therein lies the dissonance. The astonishing thing is that it’s totally playing off our mental expectations. Beethoven knew exactly what his listeners would be expecting, and used it to create some exquisite tension at that point in the piece. Well that’s my inexpert explanation. Does it make any sense? ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/23 "2010-01-03T07:19:58Z")
“Does it make any sense?” **choie** , it makes GREAT sense (to me anyway - who’s just plodding his way through The Maestro’s music, just like Frankenstein’s “monster” who became _enchanted_ with that beautiful violin he heard!) and thank you for further expounding on my original thread! Your words, (and so many others’) would be invited and welcomed on the \*\*LvB \*\*forum I linked y’all to earlier! We have so few true _musicians_ there, that it would surely be refreshing to read your thoughts on The Maestro - musically speaking (or otherwise), of _course_! Not only _refreshing_, but also _educational_! Tell 'em “Quasi sentcha”, and I’ll be there soon. Thanks **choie**! Der Quas’ ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/24 "2010-01-03T08:56:36Z")
Hey, YOU!🙂 My wife and I watched **Maksim** , and were TOTALLY mesmerized! My wife (not quite as musical as yours truly), kept breathing VERY hard as she watched him playing and kept slipping off her chair! Couldn’t _imagine_ why, till I felt that all-familiar bite on my neck and so I, of course, knew THEN what she was up to and got “up” to it as well! (IYKWIM). THAT was better than Ravel’s _Bolero_ so I am sending it right back to you to let you you know we saw it and saved it… THANK YOU! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/byGI1mDi3no/hqdefault.jpg "Maksim Mrvica playing Franz Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no) ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/25 "2010-01-03T16:36:35Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > If you want to be MINDFREAKED by similar stuff, just check out Liszt’s 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (in C# major?). It’s like the king of jumping octaves on piano, and it’s also in WB cartoons and stuff. Here’s a good (:smack:) one: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no). If you’re a fan of Liszt, as I certainly am, you should appreciate the immense complexity, technicality and, IMO, beauty of all 12 of his Transcendental Etudes, played in sequence. To my ear, the 4th etude, Mazeppa, is the highlight and I think [Boris Berezovski](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfN7xf6JymQ) executes it particularly well (check out the double octave chromatic scales at 1:56-2:02). If you like this, do yourself a favor and listen to the entire concert. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/26 "2010-01-03T17:20:56Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > Well, it could be “off-key” or “off-minor,” or “off-swell,” or “off-meter,” or even, if it’s a boss talking, “off-message.” > > I’m glad to see some talk of _music_ around here – I would definitely have ponied up here a long time ago if it didn’t seem like every music thread tanked after a few or a few dozen posts. > > I still want to know exactly what part of “Fu:r Elise” grabbed your ear, though…but it may not be possible given that there isn’t speak-o-phono-vision here. I think \*\*Quasi’s \*\*question has been answered, so I don’t have much to add to the OP. But \*\*Jaledin \*\*- there are a lot of music threads in Cafe Society - not sure which ones you think die quickly. But if you are looking at discussing music a certain way, you can certainly start threads yourself… ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/27 "2010-01-03T17:32:38Z")
> [@Tibbytoes](#): > > (check out the double octave chromatic scales at 1:56-2:02). If you like this, do yourself a favor and listen to the entire concert. Haven’t heard that in a while. Haven’t even heard of Berezovsky before – great stuff. Not quite enough emoting to the camera, contorting of the face, tossing the hair around, though, for my taste. 😕 It’s odd listening to something like these Liszt or Alkan or even the Op. 111/2 Beethoven and realizing that, in all likelihood, I’ll _never_ even get the notes down, let alone get any music out of it. Different musical priorities, I guess, but it’s terrific that people can play this repertoire without hurting themselves, let alone get great music out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/28 "2010-01-03T20:47:47Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > Haven’t heard that in a while. Haven’t even heard of Berezovsky before – great stuff. Not quite enough emoting to the camera, contorting of the face, tossing the hair around, though, for my taste. 😕 > > It’s odd listening to something like these Liszt or Alkan or even the Op. 111/2 Beethoven and realizing that, in all likelihood, I’ll _never_ even get the notes down, let alone get any music out of it. Different musical priorities, I guess, but it’s terrific that people can play this repertoire without hurting themselves, let alone get great music out of it. Indeed, I’ve been tickling the ivories since I was a wee lad, but I’m a bit crestfallen that I can’t currently claim my pianistic stylization and interpretations of Liszt, Chopin, Alkan\* et al exhibit appreciably more virtuosity than those of, say, Hamelin, Cziffra or Lazar Berman, even though I’m pretty sure I got an earlier start than those ivory ticklers—I’ll blame it on too much time spent on boogie-woogie. 😉 However, I can still emote and contort my face along with the best (but I won’t toss my hair around any more for fear that I’ll shake out those few strands I have remaining). ☹ \*French composer/piano virtuoso who purportedly made even the great Liszt nervous when in attendance at his recitals. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/29 "2011-05-12T18:11:30Z")
To answer **choie** upthread, yeah that makes sense, but I recently bought the cd “Beethoven’s Best #1” from the Beethoven Haus in Bonn and on it, in the questioned work Poco Moto (Bagatelle in A minor WoO 59 - not w00t, heh-heh) Anatol Ugorsky seems to play that note with no dissonance. I suppose that particular note is the artist’s interpretation? Thanks Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/30 "2011-05-12T19:10:33Z")
Good to know, **Quasimodem** – I forgot all about this thread, and, reading it again, I can’t believe what a dick I was to you earlier in this thread. I must have been drinking or something, but that’s no excuse whatsoever for treating you like a jerk. I’ve enjoyed all of your comments about music since then and am glad you’re still actively posting here. My apologies again, doubly so because you’ve contributed brilliantly to all the music threads I’ve read, in addition to being a nice guy with a generous intellect. Now when I get back to my studio I’ll dig out the music and try to verify your very good observation. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/31 "2011-05-12T19:23:30Z")
In rereading the thread, **Jaledin** , I see where you’ve already mentioned this, and it’s okay, really. As you also mentioned, I love music and discussion about it and that includes the pro and the con. And you’re neither a “dick” nor a “cunt”, okay? 🙂 Thanks for the note! Q ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/32 "2011-05-12T22:27:42Z")
One can hear a snippet of that passage on amazon by entering the artist’s name and Feur Elise. That particular note is in there, but very faint, so you have to listen closely. Maybe I’m wrong, but that note sounds normal (no dissonance) to me. Hopefully someone who’s more learned than I can comment. Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/33 "2011-05-13T21:01:52Z")
**Quasi** , he’s playing the same note up there. I think it’s just that he’s playing much more expressively. Playing it softer makes it sound like it fits in more. I think a lot of people would rather make the note louder and more jarring. Also, I think the people calling it “dissonant” were referring to a different note than you were. It isn’t really dissonant in either version. Although it might be a little bit more out of tune on the YouTube version. The first few chords on [this MIDI](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Dissonance_in_Mozart_counterpoint.mid) are an example of dissonance. > [@pancakes3](#): > > my favorite part to play comes at 2:14 of the youtube video - the string of heavy-handed a’s on the left hand. i always felt it was the most beetoven-ish part of the song and i play it with more flourish than necessary. lots of drama leading up to the run before settling back to the usual refrain. That’s my favorite, too. That, **Quasi** , is where a pedal point is being used. It means repeating or sustaining the same note while changing everything else. That low A is a pedal point. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/34 "2011-05-13T21:41:08Z")
Link so you don’t have to search. [http://www.amazon.com/Bagatelle-minor-WoO-Für-Elise/dp/B001KR9HG0/ref=sr\_1\_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1305319300&sr=8-3-spell](http://www.amazon.com/Bagatelle-minor-WoO-F%C3%BCr-Elise/dp/B001KR9HG0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1305319300&sr=8-3-spell) The sample takes you almost right to the point in question (the E6). ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/35 "2011-05-13T23:53:35Z")
Well, at least I’m the author of a very interesting (to me, anyway) thread. Thanks, **BigT** and everyone for making it so. That note, as everyone has pointed out, has become special to me and I have learned how to count it and find it on the sheet music. Alas, I am a percussionist and all _my_ music appears on just one line of the staff, so I never learned to read anything but that and can find the notes, their values and the rests and codas. 🙂 I am currently reading Beethoven’s Letters (1720-1826 by Lady Wallace on Kindle (supposed to be 420 pages, but either I’m a very fast reader, or there aren’t that many pages on the Kindle version), and would like to move on to an explanation/examination of each of his works, but I’m no musical theorist, so will leave those books to someone who is. What I _am_ looking for is a copy of his notebook he kept with him at all times, but so far I have only found a three volume work which lists at $250.00 the last time I looked, so I am contenting myself with what I am finding here: [http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=1507&template=einstieg\_digitales\_archiv\_en&\_mid=Written%20documents%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven%20and%20other%20people](http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=1507&template=einstieg_digitales_archiv_en&_mid=Written%20documents%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven%20and%20other%20people) Again, thanks for all the help and explanations! I NOW know that that note is the E6 and a bunch of other neat stuff, and could put all of that to good use were I single! 🙂 Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/36 "2011-05-14T01:06:43Z")
P.S. to **BigT** : I did go to the Amazon sample and listened closely and see what you were speaking of. Thanks again for taking the trouble! 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422/37 "2011-05-14T15:50:03Z")
Yes, **Quasi** , it’s just that octave E that sounds off, I think because it’s the only note that in that register in that part of the piece. Can I just note that I can’t hear this piece anymore without the lyrics from a 25-year-old [McDonald’s commercial](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2yklZeEbFE)? “And not give any to my dumb brother…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-funky-note-on-fur-elise-bagatelle-in-a-minor-beethoven/523422.md?page=1)