# That horrible disgusting Abanian Dwarf is gonna be made a saint **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085 "2016-03-15T17:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/182 "2016-03-17T17:03:06Z")
I said I’m not a Catholic, not that I’m not a Christian, not a believer, and I did not say Mother Teresa is not in Heaven, just that canonization doesn’t necessarily make it so. Sorry for the offense, **Bricker** , but most of it seems to be at stuff you just pretended I said. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/183 "2016-03-17T17:08:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not exactly. I am simply in the position of not sharing an identical set of moral precepts with you. > > Is it immoral to withhold, or even criminalize, medical care? > > Yes! So is MT guilty of witholding medical care or not, in your view? > [@Bricker](#): > > Unless by “medical care,” you mean abortion. Then, no. > > Is it immoral to refuse to distribute condoms? No! Or, yes. Depending on whether you attach any moral significance to stopping the transmission of new life during the marital sex act. > > See the problem? > > You read my unwillingness to be moved into a moral discussion as a lack of concern about the moral underpinnings of an issue. But that’s not it. It’s a lack of common moral ground to analyze the issue. I’m not really talking about abortions or condoms. I’m not really interested in debating the CC stance on this issue and am willing, reluctantly, to give MT a pass on this. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/184 "2016-03-17T17:08:56Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I think it would be more accurate to say the last part should be “let me explain to you why I say Mother Theresa should not be venerated.” Well, no. That’s undoubtedly a valid way to frame the opposition sentiment, but since Catholic doctrine is that a saint is a person that is definitely in Heaven, the objection to canonization is – from this viewpoint – an objection to the claim that she is in Heaven. See what I mean about the lack of common framework? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/185 "2016-03-17T17:11:33Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > I said I’m not a Catholic, not that I’m not a Christian, not a believer, and I did not say Mother Teresa is not in Heaven, just that canonization doesn’t necessarily make it so. Sorry for the offense, **Bricker** , but most of it seems to be at stuff you just pretended I said. Do you now understand that the Church does not say that canonization placed Mother Teresa in Heaven? In other words, the Church is not saying, “By this action, we place her in Heaven.” They are saying, “By this action, we express our strong certainty God placed her in Heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/186 "2016-03-17T17:12:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So is MT guilty of witholding medical care or not, in your view? No. In my view, she is not. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/187 "2016-03-17T17:15:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. In my view, she is not. Because you find the evidence lacking, or, because she was just following her god’s orders? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/188 "2016-03-17T17:16:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But we don’t have to look very hard for [examples of religious care](https://www.chausa.org/about/about/facts-statistics) that affords patients the kinds of medical attention (like pain killers and clean needles, for example) that improves their quality of life and does not jeopardize their salvation. > > Now, one could argue that the kind of care available in first world countries is not realistically achievable in a third world country. But is it really the case that there are too many variables at play to establish unambiguously that MT hospices could have done far more than they did but failed to do so due to reasons other than lack of funds. I think it’s completely irrelevant to compare health care inside the United States to care provided in a third world context, as you predicted I would. And I do not agree that it can be unambiguously established that Mother Teresa’s facilities were so lacking as to deserve the appellation “vile.” Undoubtedly they were not perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/189 "2016-03-17T17:17:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Mother Theresa bet on games? > > Regards, > Shodan None that she played in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/190 "2016-03-17T17:18:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because you find the evidence lacking, or, because she was just following her god’s orders? I find the evidence lacking, and to the extent that the evidence shows anything solid, it arises from a religious conviction. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/191 "2016-03-17T17:27:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s completely irrelevant to compare health care inside the United States to care provided in a third world context, as you predicted I would. And I do not agree that it can be unambiguously established that Mother Teresa’s facilities were so lacking as to deserve the appellation “vile.” > > Undoubtedly they were not perfect. Fair enough… how about [Saint Joseph’s Catholic Hospital in Liberia](http://www.sjcatholichospital.com/?doing_wp_cron=1458235347.7209389209747314453125)? I draw your attention to the services and programs they provide. Looks like they too depend on donations. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/192 "2016-03-17T17:32:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I find the evidence lacking, and to the extent that the evidence shows anything solid, it arises from a religious conviction. So if, and it’s a big if, it was shown that Mother Teresa deliberately withheld painkillers she could easily afford with the intention of prolonging their pain, or if she intentionally withheld treatment from people with curable conditions again in order to prolong their suffering, and in either case without the informed consent of the patient or even against their express and expressed wishes then you would consider that moral provided she was motivated by a sincere belief in the holiness of suffering? Or if not moral, how would you consider it? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/193 "2016-03-17T17:33:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I find the evidence lacking, and to the extent that the evidence shows anything solid, it arises from a religious conviction. And in your opinion, did those religious convictions serve to help or further hurt those under the care of her hospices? I ask this not in the spirit of criticism of religion in general, but more to the manner in which she chose to practice her particular set of religions convictions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/194 "2016-03-17T17:46:05Z")
Not sure what you expect being a saint means, beyond being a child of God but…Look at it this way, if she can get into heaven, if even Hitler can, you may just have a chance, maybe, perhaps, if you get there early and the heavenly gatekeeper is still half asleep from a night of partying and just waves you through, well maybe bring a bribe with you just to make sure, I’ve heard they like distilled spirits. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/195 "2016-03-17T17:53:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. If you’ll read what I wrote again, you will see I said it gets a harder time on this board than in the real world. You claimed the board had “an anti-Catholic bias”. If you mean the board has a secular bias against all religions, you should use the right words And considering that you’re admitting to following a set of arbitrary and conflicting rules determined in a book that claims there is a cosmic sky pixie who we must appease, do you really want to suggest other people are idiots? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/196 "2016-03-17T17:55:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not sure what you expect being a saint means, beyond being a child of God but…Look at it this way, if she can get into heaven, if even Hitler can, you may just have a chance, maybe, perhaps, if you get there early and the heavenly gatekeeper is still half asleep from a night of partying and just waves you through, well maybe bring a bribe with you just to make sure, I’ve heard they like distilled spirits. Don’t they discrimate at all?.. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/197 "2016-03-17T18:09:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I find the evidence lacking, and to the extent that the evidence shows anything solid, it arises from a religious conviction. Hot damn! How useful is that loophole! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/198 "2016-03-17T18:14:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Fair enough… how about [Saint Joseph’s Catholic Hospital in Liberia](http://www.sjcatholichospital.com/?doing_wp_cron=1458235347.7209389209747314453125)? I draw your attention to the services and programs they provide. > > Looks like they too depend on donations. But they are also funded by the Liberian National Health System. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/199 "2016-03-17T18:15:19Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So if, and it’s a big if, it was shown that Mother Teresa deliberately withheld painkillers she could easily afford with the intention of prolonging their pain, or if she intentionally withheld treatment from people with curable conditions again in order to prolong their suffering, and in either case without the informed consent of the patient or even against their express and expressed wishes then you would consider that moral provided she was motivated by a sincere belief in the holiness of suffering? Or if not moral, how would you consider it? Misguided. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/200 "2016-03-17T18:16:27Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Hot damn! How useful is that loophole! Word. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/201 "2016-03-17T18:24:39Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You claimed the board had “an anti-Catholic bias”. If you mean the board has a secular bias against all religions, you should use the right words Yeah, I should have made clear that the anti-Catholic bias the board has is a natural consequence of the board’s general antipathy to religion, and Christianity in general. Don’t know how I forgot to add those words in. > [@](#): > > And considering that you’re admitting to following a set of arbitrary and conflicting rules determined in a book that claims there is a cosmic sky pixie who we must appease, do you really want to suggest other people are idiots? Well… yeah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=11)