# That horrible disgusting Abanian Dwarf is gonna be made a saint **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085 "2016-03-15T17:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/61 "2016-03-15T22:55:34Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > That is some serious power on a scrabble board though. Those letters in that order would be worth zero, since Proper nouns are strictly verboten! Also, there is only 1 x in the bag. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/62 "2016-03-15T22:57:36Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post > > RationalWiki is unabashedly biased – towards rationality – and for that reason very, very useful and very, very non-stupid. Sometimes wrong, perhaps (though I have yet to encounter a single instance), but never stupid. > > Hee…you are so cute. Nice refute. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/63 "2016-03-15T23:08:41Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Hee…you are so cute. OK, how much science does RationalWiki vociferously deny? As for the dwarf: If your club says that people who did horrible things are good _because they did those horrible things_, maybe your club is not, morally speaking, on the side of the angels. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/64 "2016-03-15T23:24:26Z")
So, once this goes through, MT is now officially a Nun of the Above? :d&r: :d&r: :d&r: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/65 "2016-03-15T23:29:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, how does all of that differ from MT’s positions on those things? It does not differ materially from her position, so far as I am aware. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/66 "2016-03-15T23:31:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I thought that was beatification (an earlier stage, prerequisite to canonization). Er… yes. Strictly speaking, beatification is a finding that the person is in Heaven and a permission for local veneration, while canonization is a decree that the person s in heaven and may be universally venerated. I glossed over that distinction for the sake of simplicity, but you’re quite correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/67 "2016-03-15T23:35:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, how much science does RationalWiki vociferously deny? > > As for the dwarf: If your club says that people who did horrible things are good _because they did those horrible things_, maybe your club is not, morally speaking, on the side of the angels. Maybe you are not hip to all the things that the angels favor. I’d say that the angels don’t want people to gain a benefit here on Earth at the risk of imperiling their immortal soul in the afterlife. Now, of course, you may disagree that there is any such thing as the afterlife…but if so, I’d say reliance on angels is \*a priori \*misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/68 "2016-03-15T23:52:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It does not differ materially from her position, so far as I am aware. Ah. I misunderstood: > [@Bricker](#): > > There appear to be two broad ways (no pun intended) to construe the claims here: > > 1. Mother Teresa did horrible disgusting things, and the Church should not recognize her sainthood, because the Church opposes those things she did, > > Or > > 1. Mother Teresa did horrible disgusting things that the Church should oppose but does not, and therefore the Church should not recognize her sainthood because of reasons. > > In my view, the second category is weak. That is, you might say, as the Université de Montréal scholars did, that she was a negative influence because of her overly dogmatic views regarding abortion, contraception, and divorce. But surely you understand that since the Catholic Church does **not** share the views **supporting** abortion, contraception, and divorce, it is an absurd argument to inveigh against sainthood for Mother Teresa and list those as reasons. > > So I would be interested in specific criticisms of Mother Teresa that show she violated Catholic doctrine or practice. (Category 1 above). Complaints in the Category 2 box are essentially tautological. I overlooked or misread “supporting” and therefore wondered if you had included “not” inadvertently. But, a Category 2 complaint is **not** tautological. Nor is it weak. It is, rather, a criticism – and at least conceivably, you must admit, a valid one – of the Church and its policies, but it is not in any sense a tautology. To say “MT was a good Catholic because she agreed with and followed Church doctrine on X, Y and Z,” **that** is tautological. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/69 "2016-03-15T23:55:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe you are not hip to all the things that the angels favor. I’d say that the angels don’t want people to gain a benefit here on Earth at the risk of imperiling their immortal soul in the afterlife. > > Now, of course, you may disagree that there is any such thing as the afterlife…but if so, I’d say reliance on angels is \*a priori \*misplaced. Not in the metaphorical (and higher than doctrinal) sense that “on the side of the angels” is generally intended and understood to mean, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/70 "2016-03-16T00:21:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ah. I misunderstood: > > I overlooked or misread “supporting” and therefore wondered if you had included “not” inadvertently. > > But, a Category 2 complaint is **not** tautological. Nor is it weak. It is, rather, a criticism – and at least conceivably, you must admit, a valid one – of the Church and its policies, but it is not in any sense a tautology. To say “MT was a good Catholic because she agreed with and followed Church doctrine on X, Y and Z,” **that** is tautological. Both (1) and (2) are complaints about the Church choosing to canonize Mother Teresa. The complaint is not a general one, then, but a compliant about the choice to canonize, and is thus implicitly an extension of "Mother T was a good (or perhaps a better word is ‘observant’ or ‘faithful’) Catholic. Outside that narrow context, to be sure, Category (2) complaints are perfectly valid. But this thread appears to take issue with the decision of the Church to canonize, as opposed to simply being a litany of complaints about Church positions or beliefs. Of course, threads take all sorts of directions. I suppose that the thread may inevitably morph into a more general attack platform. But my commentary arose in the original narrow context. If someone wants to complain about Mother T’s opposition to abortion and the Catholic Church’s opposition to abortion…I certainly can’t stop it. But I have no interest in another abortion thread. If someone wants to claim that the Church should have found Mother T’s opposition to abortion as somehow disqualifying her for canonization, that’s where we board the train to Tautology Town. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/71 "2016-03-16T00:22:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not in the metaphorical (and higher than doctrinal) sense that “on the side of the angels” is generally intended and understood to mean, it isn’t. Ahh. Not actual angels, then, but rather a phrase that means, “…in accord with my view of morality?” ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/72 "2016-03-16T00:39:40Z")
Does the Catholic Church believe in accepting money for charity under false or at least misleading pretenses? Does the the Catholic Church believe in refusing to return donations which turn out to have been stolen? Does the Catholic Church believe in withholding pain relieving medication from those who need it because pain is somehow holy? Because I went through 12 years of Catholic school, with straight A’s in every religion class I took, and I don’t remember learning any of that. Assuming I’m correct, and the CC doesn’t believe in any of those, would it be reasonable to question why a person guilty of all of those things is still granted sainthood? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/73 "2016-03-16T01:08:50Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Does the Catholic Church believe in accepting money for charity under false or at least misleading pretenses? No. > [@](#): > > Does the the Catholic Church believe in refusing to return donations which turn out to have been stolen? Too fact-dependent to answer. > [@](#): > > Does the Catholic Church believe in withholding pain relieving medication from those who need it because pain is somehow holy? There is a tradition of “offering up” suffering for the poor souls in Purgatory, or indeed for any general or specific intentions. See also the examples of St. Thérèse of Lisieux, or Padre Pio. But as a general rule, this is penitential behavior that must be voluntarily assumed. In other words, the Church doesn’t have any prohibitions against taking pain medication, but doesn’t require that people take it. > [@](#): > > Assuming I’m correct, and the CC doesn’t believe in any of those, would it be reasonable to question why a person guilty of all of those things is still granted sainthood? It’s almost never unreasonable to question anything. But I would suggest that your recollection of the qualities for sainthood might be a bit flawed. You do understand that the process is not reserved for those that are without sin, yes? And I’d be curious to hear the precise allegation against Mother Teresa that involves refusing to return a donation that turned out to be stolen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/74 "2016-03-16T01:12:05Z")
Choosing saints seems like a Catholic thing for Catholics – I’m not inclined to criticize it any more than I’ll criticize how they administer communion. But from my reading, my opinion of Mother Theresa is that she had priorities that she valued far more than easing suffering, healing and caring for the sick, and the like, and I think that reflects very poorly on her. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/75 "2016-03-16T01:29:33Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Nice refute. :rolleyes: Nice rebuke. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/76 "2016-03-16T01:59:43Z")
> [@manila](#): > > Really? > > The Catholic church is gonna applaud this vile albanian dwarf with their greatest honour? > > This two faced cow, hypocritical bitch is gonna elevated to their highest rank this organisation can give? > > When my niece was doing her year out working as resident in hospital in calcutta, her and her workmates biggest problem was fighting off the albanian dwarf’s entreaties to the patients to come to her faculty ( can’t say hospital) and live or die at the word of the lord. > Not one cent or centavo donated n to that witch was spent on the poor and sick. > > No medicine or food. all spent on her opening her own nunneries 1. I wonder… does this witch or two faced cow or albanian dwarf help out the poor and sick and disabled physically - seems like people who need help may not know how to or even be capable of spending money? It doesn’t sound like you’re very sure as to what this person is so just wondering how you would know anything about donations concerning them. 2. If you “can’t say” hospital (I assume you mean that you aren’t able to according to law) I wonder if maybe because it isn’t one or rather, considered to be one wherever it is you live? If you believe that one should die at the word of the Lord then it would happen. According to the Bible (and its several hundred rewrites) HE is the only one able to judge us and not one of us are able to succeed his power; nor is HIS love for someone penetrable. 3. Unless the currency of Pesos to US Dollars has changed to 1 for 1 then a “centavo” is not “a cent” its one hundredth the worth of a Peso. I hope none of my response to your post offends you as that was not my intention. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/77 "2016-03-16T02:03:50Z")
If someone is rewarded something most likely a majority agrees that this “honor” is warranted and/or deserved. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/78 "2016-03-16T02:05:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I’d be curious to hear the precise allegation against Mother Teresa that involves refusing to return a donation that turned out to be stolen. In case you aren’t aware of her relationship with Charles Keating: > **[Charles Keating gave other people’s money to Mother Teresa](https://howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/charles-keating-gave-other-peoples-money-to-mother-teresa/)** > > This is Charles Keating. He stole $252,000,000 (£126,671,335) from people who he tricked into thinking they were making low risk investments, but were in fact funding his exuberant lifestyle and hi… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/79 "2016-03-16T03:24:47Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Nice rebuke. Nice impute. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/80 "2016-03-16T03:44:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That seems to almost make her more impressive, if she lost he faith and kept on anyway Obviously, I disagree. It’s one thing to do things which may appear wrong if you believe you’re achieving some greater good. But if you don’t believe in the greater good, you’re just doing wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=5)