# That horrible disgusting Abanian Dwarf is gonna be made a saint **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085 "2016-03-15T17:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/81 "2016-03-16T03:55:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Obviously, I disagree. It’s one thing to do things which may appear wrong if you believe you’re achieving some greater good. But if you don’t believe in the greater good, you’re just doing wrong. Do you mean to do the wrong thing for the right reason? What was her greater good? ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/82 "2016-03-16T03:57:34Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Nah, the Church was created by Man, any awards they bestow are also created by Man. I think thats what was being conveyed. “reward” contradicts a general understanding of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/83 "2016-03-16T04:02:48Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > In case you aren’t aware of her relationship with Charles Keating: > > [Charles Keating gave other people’s money to Mother Teresa | How good is that?](https://howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/charles-keating-gave-other-peoples-money-to-mother-teresa/) In case you were not aware, Keating’s convictions were overturned. He ultimately entered a guilty plea to bankruptcy fraud, acts that occurred well after he donated money to Mother Teresa. But he maintained his innocence with respect to stealing money from anyone, and indeed he has never been found guilty of such acts. Investors did win a civil judgment against him, to be sure, but I cannot think of a single example of a charity returning money years after the fact in response to learning that the contributions they got arose from civil fraud. For example, Madoff made charitable contributions when his empire was (fraudulently) flying high, and I have never heard of any of those contributions being repaid. Have you? In fact, can you name a single instance in which any charity has received donations from activity that was later alleged to be non-criminal but a breach of fiduciary duty…and then returned it? Are you suggesting that some special rule should apply to Mother Teresa in this regard? ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/84 "2016-03-16T04:05:47Z")
> [@manila](#): > > Really? > > The Catholic church is gonna applaud this vile albanian dwarf with their greatest honour? > > This two faced cow, hypocritical bitch is gonna elevated to their highest rank this organisation can give? > > When my niece was doing her year out working as resident in hospital in calcutta, her and her workmates biggest problem was fighting off the albanian dwarf’s entreaties to the patients to come to her faculty ( can’t say hospital) and live or die at the word of the lord. > Not one cent or centavo donated n to that witch was spent on the poor and sick. > > No medicine or food. all spent on her opening her own nunneries I know this reply is late, but I was thinking about it for a while… Mother Teresa died 20 years ago… LOL ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/85 "2016-03-16T04:27:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In case you were not aware, Keating’s convictions were overturned. And on the day he was convicted, Angels flew down and told the Sainted Mother that she should hang on to the money for the next four and a half years, because God would eventually get around to setting Keating free (by sending a divinely inspired finding of legal error, mind you–not due to any witnesses recanting or any exonerating evidence emerging). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/86 "2016-03-16T04:32:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. St. Peter is not simply a saint, but the first Pope. And he denied Christ. > > Sainthood is a finding that the deceased person is in Heaven. It is not necessary to live a sinless life to get into heaven. I was aware that Saints could be sinners - they kind of have to be, if they’re supposed to be human - but I’m surprised to learn that “saint” just means that they’re in heaven. How does the miracle-working play into that? How does working a miracle when you’re alive demonstrate that you went to heaven when you died? It seems, at best, that it shows you’re solid with god at the time of the miracle, but if we have free will, even a miracle worker must have the capacity to screw it all up before the end and not make it through the pearly gates after they die. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/87 "2016-03-16T04:37:19Z")
Also: > [@Bricker](#): > > In case you were not aware, Keating’s convictions were overturned. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > In April 1992, California Superior Court Judge Lance Ito gave Keating the maximum 10-year prison sentence, quoting Woody Guthrie, to wit “More people have suffered from the point of a fountain pen than from a gun.” > > … > > In April 1996, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled that state trial judge Ito had given the jury faulty instructions about the law regarding fraud. _Lance fucking Ito_? Jesus! Was there _any_ high profile trial that guy _didn’t_ fuck up? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/88 "2016-03-16T05:04:14Z")
Well, based only what I’ve read in Wikipedia, Mother Teresa apparently, [ul] [li]Took funds from right-wing dictator Jean-Claude Duvalier, who embezzled from Haiti[/li][li]used insufficient pain relievers relative to other hospices because she thought suffering was great[/li][li]had insufficient medical professionals, so that medical decisions were made by those without training. The order could not distinguish between curable and incurable patients.[/li][li]did not isolate patients with tuberculosis,[/li][li]used warm water to clean syringes. Actually I thought this one was the most damning, oddly. Because it was indicative of an underlying problem.[/li][li]the fact that they actually weren’t the largest charity in Calcutta makes one suspect that they misled their donors somewhat. Or at least some of them.[/li][/ul] Frankly though, I’m not fully convinced. I don’t have a firm grasp on what are aberrations and what are standard practices. I don’t know whether the fund raising truly misrepresented what happened. I’m getting a hatchet job vibe from some of these reports, but that may or may not be a false signal. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/89 "2016-03-16T05:13:37Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Curious to know what being Albanian has to do with it. Something to do with the capital of New York State. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/90 "2016-03-16T05:18:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How does working a miracle when you’re alive demonstrate that you went to heaven when you died? It seems, at best, that it shows you’re solid with god at the time of the miracle, but if we have free will, even a miracle worker must have the capacity to screw it all up before the end and not make it through the pearly gates after they die. The miracles that count for sainthood are ones that occur after the prospective saint’s death. The idea is that they demonstrate that the person is in Heaven and able to intercede directly with God (which they would be if they were in Purgatory or Hell). Martyrs, those who died for their faith, can be declared saints without the necessity of a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/91 "2016-03-16T05:20:23Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Mother Theresa. > > While I don’t like using dwarf as part of insulting her, I agree with the sentiment and had the same reaction when I read the news today. I can’t be the only one who just assumed this had already happened. I saw her name trending on social media, but so was Nate Dogg. I thought maybe it was also the anniversary of her death and never thought about either being made a saint. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/92 "2016-03-16T05:30:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Church doesn’t “reward” anyone with sainthood. _God_ does that. The Church merely recognizes that which has already been found to be true. > > That’s the teaching, anyway. I’m sure an actual Catholic will be along shortly to elaborate. > [@Icarus](#): > > Nah, the Church was created by Man, any awards they bestow are also created by Man. The church does not consider sainthood an “award”. You may disagree with them, but **Smapti** is correct about the church’s beliefs. Canonization is the simple acknowledgement that a person is in Heaven, according to the Catholic church’s teachings. (Just because you don’t believe as they do doesn’t change their teachings) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/94 "2016-03-16T05:34:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In case you were not aware, Keating’s convictions were overturned. He ultimately entered a guilty plea to bankruptcy fraud, acts that occurred well after he donated money to Mother Teresa. But he maintained his innocence with respect to stealing money from anyone, and indeed he has never been found guilty of such acts. > > Investors did win a civil judgment against him, to be sure, but I cannot think of a single example of a charity returning money years after the fact in response to learning that the contributions they got arose from civil fraud. For example, Madoff made charitable contributions when his empire was (fraudulently) flying high, and I have never heard of any of those contributions being repaid. Have you? In fact, can you name a single instance in which any charity has received donations from activity that was later alleged to be non-criminal but a breach of fiduciary duty…and then returned it? > > Are you suggesting that some special rule should apply to Mother Teresa in this regard? Well she is a fucking Saint so yeah I expect better out of her. You know, like setting a good example. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/95 "2016-03-16T05:41:05Z")
I just did a quick Google and found $45 million in Madoff gains. [http://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/hadassah-to-return-45-million-in-madoff-investment-gains](http://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/hadassah-to-return-45-million-in-madoff-investment-gains) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/96 "2016-03-16T06:40:12Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Do you mean to do the wrong thing for the right reason? What was her greater good? She claimed that she allowed sick people to suffer avoidable pain because the suffering brought them closer to God. It would be one thing if she sincerely believed this - she might be delusional but at least in her mind she would be helping people. But if she didn’t believe that God was present - and she privately admitted she did not throughout all the time she was in India - then that suffering was achieving nothing. She was having people suffer for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/97 "2016-03-16T09:13:31Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > My understanding and I’m very much open to correction is that she had no problems accepting donations from ideologically troubling people… That bit sounds a lot like a certain carpenter from northern Israel. I can see criticism about how to spend it, but anybody who thinks only “clean money” should be accepted as charity have no idea what charity means. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/98 "2016-03-16T10:26:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > _Lance fucking Ito_? Jesus! Was there _any_ high profile trial that guy _didn’t_ fuck up? Ito is a short fella, right? This Theresa woman was five foot tall (though not a dwarf). Maybe Randy Newman was onto something. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/99 "2016-03-16T12:07:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In case you were not aware, Keating’s convictions were overturned. … Ah, Indulgence does work. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/100 "2016-03-16T13:55:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There appear to be two broad ways (no pun intended) to construe the claims here: > > 1. Mother Teresa did horrible disgusting things, and the Church should not recognize her sainthood, because the Church opposes those things she did, > > Or > > 1. Mother Teresa did horrible disgusting things that the Church should oppose but does not, and therefore the Church should not recognize her sainthood because of reasons. > > In my view, the second category is weak. By this reasoning, it is “weak” to deplore the fact that the Nazi regime rewarded people for figuring out ways to kill Jews more efficiently. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/101 "2016-03-16T14:03:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I was aware that Saints could be sinners - they kind of have to be, if they’re supposed to be human - but I’m surprised to learn that “saint” just means that they’re in heaven. How does the miracle-working play into that? How does working a miracle when you’re alive demonstrate that you went to heaven when you died? It seems, at best, that it shows you’re solid with god at the time of the miracle, but if we have free will, even a miracle worker must have the capacity to screw it all up before the end and not make it through the pearly gates after they die. The necessary miracles are generally post-mortem, and intended to show that the claimed saint is in Heaven, and thus in a great position to whisper in God’s ear. The miracle that elevated her to sainthood happened in December 2008, in which a man with a viral brain infection and multiple abscesses had failed to respond to treatment and was in a coma. His wife had prayed for Mother Teresa’s intercession and the surgeon reported that when he entered the operating room, the man sat up and asked, “What am I doing here?” There was no medical explanation for the sudden reversal and he showed no symptoms of the previous ailment. The point being that Mother Teresa died in 1997. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=6)