# That horrible disgusting Abanian Dwarf is gonna be made a saint **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085 "2016-03-15T17:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/162 "2016-03-17T13:52:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And for whatever it’s worth, posts of this general form are a bit annoying: > > _I’m not a Catholic, nor even a Christian, and in fact don’t believe in any supernatural nonsense like a deity, Heaven, souls, or an afterlife of any kind. Now, let me explain to you why I say Mother Teresa’s soul did not go to heaven._ Notabelieveroratheologiansplainin’? Dunnow, too many letters… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/163 "2016-03-17T14:12:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The Big MT has been dead for a while now. So she isn’t going to be funneling any money off, canonization not withstanding. > > I look at this as being like the Baseball Hall of Fame. If you aren’t a serious baseball fan, do you really care which players have been named to it? > The ranks of the saints are filled with people who were, no doubt, unpleasant. There are some in there, as well, who weren’t even real people. One more name to the list scarcely matters. Yeah, but no way Pete Rose belongs there. No way. And I don’t even watch baseball!! ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/164 "2016-03-17T14:27:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you beliieve in **the Passion of Jesus**? (That _refers to both the fact of, and the religious sigificance of, Jesus’ torture and death_) > > Do you understand that she did? (Bolding, italics mine) And don’t forget the Mel Gibson film. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/165 "2016-03-17T14:37:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But this is why I don’t debate accusations like how vile someone is. If I allege that the law says X, and you say it’s Y, we can resolve the issue with reference to citable authority. > > When we try to weigh what kind of negligence is vile, more or less vile, vile at all, and the like, we cannot similarly agree. That’s interesting - there’s certainly merit in establishing the facts, but I would say the really valuable debates are the ones where we don’t have a citeable authority to refer to, and we have to come to decisions ourselves. In these cases, it’s really helpful to get differing viewpoints as a way of getting new insight on the problem. “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken”, after all. Granted, some degree of common terminology is useful and I agree that “vile” is a rather fuzzy concept. > [@](#): > > The best answer I can give is that I would need more detail. But someone who was idealistic but incompetent in execution would not, in my view, be fairly described as vile. I would agree with that for small harms. (I may, from time to time, have made mistakes myself, after all.) My instinct is that there’s a point where the scale of harm caused by incompetence is so great that incompetence ceases to be a mitigating factor and becomes an aggravating one. Particularly if the harm happens over a long period of time, as is alleged here. The more opportunities to recognise and correct incompetence, the less of an excuse it is. I also feel that if someone seeks out a position where there competence or incompetence will have potentially serious effects then they have a duty not just to believe that they are competent but to know they are. To believe in your untested competence to care for the sick just because you really want to is pure vanity. However, if I’m following your conversation with Grumman correctly, you’re arguing that there may be other reasons than managerial incompetence behind the failure of the hospice. Are you saying that Mother Teresa’s religiously inspired view of suffering could have played a role in her decisions on the level and quality of medical/palliative care her institution should provide? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/166 "2016-03-17T14:45:11Z")
The other thing to keep in mind is that, from a Catholic’s perspective, it’s really not all that hard to get into heaven. I suspect that if we play by their rules, the vast majority of Catholics end up there. So the “hall of fame” analogy isn’t a good one in the sense that the souls in heaven aren’t hardly some rarified elite. A saint is just someone in heaven. And most of the folks in that religion end up there. It may seem like a big deal when someone is canonized like this, but it’s not, really, from a statical standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/167 "2016-03-17T14:53:12Z")
Sure there are lots of people in Heaven going by Catholic teaching. People who are canonized are a Hall of Fame, though, because it is rare that we are given to know in this world the status of those in the next. Yes, your grandmother was a lovely, good-hearted lady, but how many documented post mortem miracles are attributed to her? Mother Teresa has at least one, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/168 "2016-03-17T15:04:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And for whatever it’s worth, posts of this general form are a bit annoying: > > _I’m not a Catholic, nor even a Christian, and in fact don’t believe in any supernatural nonsense like a deity, Heaven, souls, or an afterlife of any kind. Now, let me explain to you why I say Mother Teresa’s soul did not go to heaven._ Atheists are the top most Authoritah on all things religious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/169 "2016-03-17T15:19:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Sure there are lots of people in Heaven going by Catholic teaching. People who are canonized are a Hall of Fame, though, because it is rare that we are given to know in this world the status of those in the next. Yes, your grandmother was a lovely, good-hearted lady, but how many documented post mortem miracles are attributed to her? Mother Teresa has at least one, apparently. Hall of fame has too much of a connotation that they were chosen by us. They weren’t. But if you really want to call them that, go ahead. You have my blessing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/170 "2016-03-17T15:30:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hall of fame has too much of a connotation that they were chosen by us. They weren’t. > > But if you really want to call them that, go ahead. You have my blessing. 😉 Thank you for the blessing. The Hall of fame thing was just an analogy, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/171 "2016-03-17T15:56:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s a mixed bag. The accusations that she was vile for her positions on abortion, contraception, and divorce are purely unshared opinion. The points you raise above are also opinion, but they – if true – would be opinions I might share. > > Of course, the devil is in the details. She “ran,” the hospital – did she personally order people to be left untreated so they would die? Did she do so from malice? Was there some other context which makes her decision less objectionable? The answers to these questions would be very important for me. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > If his list of statements were shown to be factually true, you might be inclined to share the opinion that… wait, what? > [@Bricker](#): > > Yeah, you were getting there. In other words, you’re just trolling. Nice. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, I don’t quite agree. One possible view is she was naive with respect to,the challenges of management, believing that she had things handled when she did not. > > This, in my view, is not “vile.” > > But this is why I don’t debate accusations like how vile someone is. If I allege that the law says X, and you say it’s Y, we can resolve the issue with reference to citable authority. > > When we try to weigh what kind of negligence is vile, more or less vile, vile at all, and the like, we cannot similarly agree. > > The best answer I can give is that I would need more detail. But someone who was idealistic but incompetent in execution would not, in my view, be fairly described as vile. Let me guess, you’re a criminal defense attorney?.. > [@Derleth](#): > > So, a priest who was guilty of sexually abusing children but later made what the Church considered imperfect contrition, fucking children being a mortal but not an eternal sin, that priest could potentially be recognized as a saint after his death. > > The children he raped wouldn’t be, of course, because they fell away from the Church after all of the damage done to them in the church buildings, meaning they refused to come to the source of their redemption, which means they’re doomed to Hell. “Refusing to be redeemed” is either an eternal sin or the only eternal sin, after all, depending on your philosophy. > > St. Teresa is going to be in good company, as per Catholic dogma. [QUOTE=Bricker] When you discuss an odious sin like child rape, naturally it raises strong emotions. But forget Catholic-specific doctrine for a moment. In your understanding of general Christian belief, is it fairer to say: (A) no matter how contrite and seeking forgiveness he might be, a person who has raped children can never be forgiven by God, and is automatically consigned to Hell, -or- (B) even such a horrible sinner as that can be forgiven by God [/quote] Asked and answered, counselor. No more questions. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/172 "2016-03-17T16:21:37Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Out of idle curiosity, are there any Dopers willing to share here who are also Catholic, and think at least somewhat in tandem with the OP? I _was_ a Catholic, and I am pretty much in agreement with the OP. But I don’t think I had much faith past the second or third grade. My friends and I used to say if you want to make your kid an ex-Catholic send them to Catholic school. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/173 "2016-03-17T16:23:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In other words, you’re just trolling. Nice. So we can add a lack of any understanding of what the word ‘trolling,’ means to the list of concepts that participants here are still willing to confidently assess despite that lack. > [@](#): > > Asked and answered, counselor. No more questions. Has been asked, has not been answered. Did the University of Ally McBeal not cover that concept? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/174 "2016-03-17T16:30:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In other words, you’re just trolling. Nice. I don’t see that at all. I think it’s clear from our discussion that Bricker has sincere reasons for wanting to know more about Mother Teresa’s role and the circumstances behind the alleged mistreatment of patients before he’ll come to a judgement. Nothing about our discussion makes me think he’s trolling. > [@](#): > > Let me guess, you’re a criminal defense attorney?.. > > Asked and answered, counselor. No more questions. So first, what’s wrong with criminal defense attorneys? The concept of vigorously testing the other side of a debate shouldn’t be one that people find alarming or somehow contemptible. Secondly, I don’t see much wrong with Bricker’s answer. Redemption and forgiveness are central to Christianity and pose much, much harder problems than they might seem to at first. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/175 "2016-03-17T16:31:26Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I don’t see that at all. I think it’s clear from our discussion that Bricker has sincere reasons for wanting to know more about Mother Teresa’s role and the circumstances behind the alleged mistreatment of patients before he’ll come to a judgement. Nothing about our discussion makes me think he’s trolling… > > …So first, what’s wrong with criminal defense attorneys? The concept of vigorously testing the other side of a debate shouldn’t be one that people find alarming or somehow contemptible. Secondly, I don’t see much wrong with Bricker’s answer. Redemption and forgiveness are central to Christianity and pose much, much harder problems than they might seem to at first. This, only pretend like I wrote it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/176 "2016-03-17T16:33:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I look at this as being like the Baseball Hall of Fame. If you aren’t a serious baseball fan, do you really care which players have been named to it? Mother Theresa bet on games? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/177 "2016-03-17T16:40:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So we can add a lack of any understanding of what the word ‘trolling,’ means to the list of concepts that participants here are still willing to confidently assess despite that lack. You’ve made it abundantly clear that your raison d’etre is to enlighten us about the importance of the letter of the law, to a fault, regardless of the moral standing of said authority. And while I often appreciate your insight… hell, every now and then find myself agreeing with your argument… I almost always feel like I need a shower afterwards. > [@Bricker](#): > > Has been asked, has not been answered. Did the University of Ally McBeal not cover that concept? It’s just that I don’t care, you see. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/178 "2016-03-17T16:43:01Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > That’s interesting - there’s certainly merit in establishing the facts, but I would say the really valuable debates are the ones where we don’t have a citeable authority to refer to, and we have to come to decisions ourselves. In these cases, it’s really helpful to get differing viewpoints as a way of getting new insight on the problem. “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken”, after all. Granted, some degree of common terminology is useful and I agree that “vile” is a rather fuzzy concept. As a general aspirational principle, I agree with the foregoing…but I think the general case breaks down when the differing viewpoints arise from fundamentally differing postulates. Someone might claim, for example, that Mother Teresa’s insistence on teaching the sinfulness of contraception was vile, given the rampant overpopulation, poverty, and hunger problems in her part of the world. A debate can ensue on just how much overpopulation exists, or whether hunger is the result of too many mouths or poor resource management. But when one side of the debate declares that the use of contraception imperils one’s soul, and the other side declares equally firmly that a soul is a figment of the imagination, this is where I would suggest your collegial model breaks down. > [@](#): > > I also feel that if someone seeks out a position where there competence or incompetence will have potentially serious effects then they have a duty not just to believe that they are competent but to know they are. To believe in your untested competence to care for the sick just because you really want to is pure vanity. > > However, if I’m following your conversation with Grumman correctly, you’re arguing that there may be other reasons than managerial incompetence behind the failure of the hospice. Are you saying that Mother Teresa’s religiously inspired view of suffering could have played a role in her decisions on the level and quality of medical/palliative care her institution should provide? It’s possible. I have no idea what the facts actually are – the reports alleging poor medical care seem to consistently arise from sources that had a general animus towards religious care. In particular, these appear to be many of the same sources that express indignation that Mother Teresa sought not merely to care for the bodies, but to convert her patients to Christianity. So there remain too many variables in play: the unambiguous facts are not established, and if they were, there would likely remain differing interpretations of her actions, some more damning than others. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/179 "2016-03-17T16:54:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You’ve made it abundantly clear that your raison d’etre is to enlighten us about the importance of the letter of the law, to a fault, regardless of the moral standing of said authority. Not exactly. I am simply in the position of not sharing an identical set of moral precepts with you. Is it immoral to withhold, or even criminalize, medical care? Yes! Unless by “medical care,” you mean abortion. Then, no. Is it immoral to refuse to distribute condoms? No! Or, yes. Depending on whether you attach any moral significance to stopping the transmission of new life during the marital sex act. See the problem? You read my unwillingness to be moved into a moral discussion as a lack of concern about the moral underpinnings of an issue. But that’s not it. It’s a lack of common moral ground to analyze the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/180 "2016-03-17T16:57:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And for whatever it’s worth, posts of this general form are a bit annoying: > > _I’m not a Catholic, nor even a Christian, and in fact don’t believe in any supernatural nonsense like a deity, Heaven, souls, or an afterlife of any kind. Now, let me explain to you why I say Mother Teresa’s soul did not go to heaven._ I think it would be more accurate to say the last part should be “let me explain to you why I say Mother Theresa should not be venerated.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085/181 "2016-03-17T17:01:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s possible. I have no idea what the facts actually are – the reports alleging poor medical care seem to consistently arise from sources that had a general animus towards religious care. In particular, these appear to be many of the same sources that express indignation that Mother Teresa sought not merely to care for the bodies, but to convert her patients to Christianity. > > So there remain too many variables in play: the unambiguous facts are not established, and if they were, there would likely remain differing interpretations of her actions, some more damning than others. But we don’t have to look very hard for [examples of religious care](https://www.chausa.org/about/about/facts-statistics) that affords patients the kinds of medical attention (like pain killers and clean needles, for example) that improves their quality of life and does not jeopardize their salvation. Now, one could argue that the kind of care available in first world countries is not realistically achievable in a third world country. But is it really the case that there are too many variables at play to establish unambiguously that MT hospices could have done far more than they did but failed to do so due to reasons other than lack of funds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-horrible-disgusting-abanian-dwarf-is-gonna-be-made-a-saint/749085.md?page=10)