# That is NOT a f\*\*king martini!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 4, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315 "2006-01-04T01:13:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![usar\_jag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/41 "2006-01-04T15:04:11Z")
> [@want2know](#): > > Any other martini fans out there… > > There are only **2** , count them, **2** types of martinis: GIN and VODKA!!! Yes, I know, some ultra-purists will say that the gin variety is the only true martini, but James Bond drinks vodka martinis, so that has to count for something, right? > > Come up with some other names, asshats… First off, excellent rant–I have been meaning to do this for some time, but feared a smackdown since the proper name “martini” has been transformed in the vernacular. To answer your query about other names, there is a perfectly acceptable name for these martini “variations,” which is of course, “Cocktail.” It can describe any of these drinks, and it has the exta benefit of sounding slightly naughty. Finally, speaking as a martini uber-purist, I can assure you that **there is only ONE way to make a martini: gin & vermouth.** There is no such thing as a “vodka martini,” in the same sense that there is no such thing as a “vodka margarita” or a “vodka daiquiri.”\* A fictional character drinking a fictional drink is no basis for an argument. 😉 \*I recently ordered a Sidecar, which confused the waiter. She came back and asked, “Do you mean a Brandy Margarita”? I switched my order to scotch, which is something they (hopefully) couldn’t screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/42 "2006-01-04T15:38:39Z")
Not to piss all over the martini-purist parade, but I was once the proud owner of a circa-1909 bartender’s guide. In addition to the sidecar mentioned by **Otto** , there were a bunch of different drinks the guide referred to as “martinis.” It would appear that the idea that a martini _must_ be gin/vodka and vermouth is a comparatively recent thing. One of the things that really interested me in that guide was the number of drinks that used beer as a mixer. Made with something like Coors Lite, they’d be loathesome, but with modern versions of the more flavorful beers of that period they’d be superyummydelicious. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/43 "2006-01-04T16:25:58Z")
I just saw an ad for a “Bailey’s Martini.” It’s Bailey’s, shaken with ice, strained into a glass. 😕 The Bailey’s company ought to be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/44 "2006-01-04T17:04:05Z")
> [@annewaldron](#): > > How about a dirty martini? Does that qualify as one of the 2, even though there’s a little “extra” in there? No. Anything other than vodka or gin with vermouth is a vodka-based mixed drink. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/45 "2006-01-04T17:53:51Z")
Everything you need to know about the martini has been summarized magnificently - and in the true Straight Dope Kitchen Science spirit - here: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmartini.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmartini.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/46 "2006-01-04T18:25:36Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > YI’ve also had to add “gin” to my order, having been asked too many times about my order “What kind of vodka do you want?” My wife and I were in a bar once, and we ordered two Bombay Sapphire martinis. The server nodded and left to get our drinks. A couple of minutes later, she returned and informed us that they had no Bombay Sapphire, and would we like to select another vodka. We actually had to explain that Bombay Sapphire is a gin. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/47 "2006-01-04T18:27:49Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And… a martini is made of gin, a vodka martini is made of vodka. I also heard that the original James Bond vodka martini also has gin, it’s half gin half vodka, not straight vodka. As I stated in a recent thread, you are thinking of a vesper. The original quote is here: > [@Ian Fleming](#): > > “A dry martini,” he said. “One. In a deep champagne goblet.” > > “Oui, monsieur.” > > “Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it’s ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon-peel. Got it?” Another thing that is really annoying is when someone specifies exactly how they want the martini made, whether shaken or stirred, how dry, twist or olive, yet don’t specify the gin. It doesn’t matter on whit how you make the bloody thing if you use turpentine as the main ingredient. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/48 "2006-01-04T18:34:30Z")
To those complaining about martini glasses: You do realize that the point is to keep the drink _cold_, right? By holding the glass by the stem, you don’t transfer your body heat from your fingers into the drink. Martinis, and Vodka martinis are not served on the rocks, but must be served very cold. This means a couple things: You need a martini glass that is chilled and held properly when sipping. Also, you need to be quick about drinking it. As to spilling the drink: I’ve never had this problem. I’ve drank thousands of them and I can’t recall spilling any off the top of my head. If your at a bar where you will be jostling around with a large crowd then order a beer. If you order a martini at a crowded college bar or a dance club then you get what you deserve. This method has rarely let me down. Go to a nice bar or restaraunt. Order a martini or vodka martini the way you prefer it. The bartender will place it on the bar or table in front of you. When you want a sip, pick it up and have one. Unless you are a clutz, there shouldn’t be any problem. ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/49 "2006-01-04T18:41:13Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > We actually had to explain that Bombay Sapphire is a gin. :rolleyes: At that point, I’d declare it time to go to a different bar. I’ve had a frightening number of servers who didn’t know the difference between bourbon and scotch. Makes me very nervous about what will actually show up at the table. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/50 "2006-01-04T18:49:18Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Martinis, and Vodka martinis are not served on the rocks, but must be served very cold. This means a couple things: You need a martini glass that is chilled and held properly when sipping. Also, you need to be quick about drinking it. Sorry, but traditionally, cocktails were served in rocks glasses over ice, and this is generally the way you will be served a Gimlet, a Manhattan, or a Rob Roy unless otherwise specified (though I had a nasty shock recently at a local place which served the gimlet straight up–thankfully, my companion was forgiving in that regard); the cocktail glass (which has grown through the years to become this saucerous monstrosty that is now the “martini glass”) became popular in the Fifties. FWIW, I prefer vodka and gin martinis in a cocktail glass (I’m not fond of most drinks except for a margarita over ice) but I find the modern glasses to be both too broad and shallow to handle comfortably, and with too thin a rim to be very resillent. I generally resort to handling the glass Bond-style–that is, picking it up by the rim and drinking underhand–but some recent glasses are even too large to do this easily. But at least the martini glass keeps people from drinking through the stirstick. If there is one pointlessly irritating thing that bothers me above all other, it is patrons drinking their drink through the stirstick. Just because it is hollow doesn’t make it a straw, baby. Pedantic, I know, but at least I’m not making fun of people who drink sweet “martinis”. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/51 "2006-01-04T19:00:38Z")
**even sven** , I think I love you. FWIW, in parts west, I know lemon drops in shot glasses, and have seen them in tumblers. I’m sure they’re served in martini glasses often enough, but such places send me running for the hills. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/52 "2006-01-04T19:16:10Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > My wife and I were in a bar once, and we ordered two Bombay Sapphire martinis. The server nodded and left to get our drinks. A couple of minutes later, she returned and informed us that they had no Bombay Sapphire, and would we like to select another vodka. > > We actually had to explain that Bombay Sapphire is a gin. :rolleyes: I ordered a Bombay Sapphire martini (up, three olives 😃 ). It came back red. Red liquid, with three olives jauntily stuck in the glass. I said, “I’m sorry; I ordered a Bombay Sapphire martini. This is red.” “Yes,” said the sweet young thing who looked like she wasn’t old enough to drink herself. “I wondered why you wanted olives in it.” Turns out, they had some “signature drink” on the menu that has the word “sapphire” in the name, so she assumed that’s what I wanted, 'cause I used the word “sapphire.” Um, no. And to put olives in a sweet foofy girly drink? Just gives me the shudders thinking about it. And, for the record, the Bombay Sapphire, when it came, was the _best_ part of the meal (other than the company, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/53 "2006-01-04T19:20:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, “extra dry Martinis” made without any Vermouth at all- aren’t “Martini’s” either. Most of the 'extra-dry" martini “recipes” out there are straight gin, with various joke ways of not having any Vermouth. So there. The joke I like is “referring obliquely to the history of fortified wines in 17th century Aquitaine while nodding toward the vermouth bottle”. Seriously though, I don’t like them terribly dry, and always use at least 1:4 vermouth:gin if not even wetter. To be absolutely fair about it, even without using vermouth there’s always a considerable amount of meltwater from the ice, so it’s more like gin with a little water, than straight gin. In one important respect, the OP has a legitimate gripe. Some of these preposterous “martini” flavorings leave a residual taste on the glass, which isn’t always eliminated by a quick washing. A few months ago I was in a bar that offers a whole passel of various “-inis”, and I definitely could tell that the last drink made in my glass, prior to the straight-up gin martini I was drinking, had been a “Key Lime Martini”. Perhaps if they could segregate the glasses… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/54 "2006-01-04T19:43:56Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > To those complaining about martini glasses: You do realize that the point is to keep the drink _cold_, right? By holding the glass by the stem, you don’t transfer your body heat from your fingers into the drink. Plain wine glasses do this just fine without the triangular widemouthed bowl. That wide shallow bowl is the problem, not the stem. If you can hold a full martini glass by the stem without spilling, you’re a better man than I. I’m with Strainger, I wind up holding the drink by the bowl, not by the stem, which sort of defeats the purpose. I suppose if you’re eating dinner, the spilliness of the glass isn’t an issue, but you should be able to have one at a cocktail party and circulate comfortably. I won’t even mention the new stemless martini glasses ::shudder:: ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/55 "2006-01-04T19:44:27Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > In one important respect, the OP has a legitimate gripe. Some of these preposterous “martini” flavorings leave a residual taste on the glass, which isn’t always eliminated by a quick washing. A few months ago I was in a bar that offers a whole passel of various “-inis”, and I definitely could tell that the last drink made in my glass, prior to the straight-up gin martini I was drinking, had been a “Key Lime Martini”. Perhaps if they could segregate the glasses… Yet another problem with modern martini glasses; they’re so flat that the glass scrubber (it’s that wirring noise you hear when the bartender is cleaning glasses; it has two or three spinning brushes that clean the inside and outside of the glass quickly) can’t wash them, so they’re washed “by hand”. Generally, this means that they’re dunked in cleaning solution, dunked in soap remover, then dunked in water without being scrubbed; and because the glasses are so fragile they’re often not cleaned very thouroughly. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/56 "2006-01-04T20:03:09Z")
When I started working in the restaurant/bar business about 15 years ago it seemed a pretty even 50/50 split between martinis being ordered either “on the rocks” or “up”. Then some boob invented the Cosompolitan and everyone wanted one of those colorful drinks in the big pretty glass. What I love are the idiots I have seen order what passes for a martini these days and then send it back saying it was too strong. Give me a break. Even a Cosmo or the dreaded Appletini is almost nothing but liquor. Of course once I had someone send back a Long Island Ice Tea because it was too strong so what should I expect… ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/57 "2006-01-04T20:35:10Z")
I’m not sure that I see the problem. I think this is symptomatic of a general trend in this country, one that has been going on for years and that we are powerless to stop. Full disclosure: I admit that I have a sneaking desire for an apple martini around the holidays. The rest of the year I can take it or leave it (just like pumpkin pie after Thanksgiving), but a green apple alcoholic drink, with cinnamon sugar on the rim seems to fit the season, and makes a welcome change from the ordinary stress of that time of year. Just as the purity of a well made gin martini seems tailor made for those icy days in January. The purists can argue that these new drinks aren’t really martinis, and they are absolutely correct. But this is America, where everything gets homogenized into easy categories, and this is a losing battle, to my mind. For example (as I have been corrected before), Jack Daniels isn’t Bourbon; it’s Tennessee Whiskey filtered via the Lincoln County Process. Does that stop the liquor store from stocking it on the Bourbon shelf? Maybe in Kentucky, but not many other places. Like it or not, complain or not, folks are going to call it Bourbon no matter how much you complain. And imagine going to a bar and asking for a “Tennessee Whiskey filtered via the Lincoln County Process on the rocks”. It’s the only way I know of that could get you a sock on the jaw in some bars for ordering a Jack on the rocks. 🙂 Before getting upset my complacency over falling standards, ask yourself a few questions: Did you really drink “Champagne” at New Year’s Eve, or was it really “Methode Champenoise”? When you go out for Italian food, how close is it to the food that a self-respecting Italian family would eat? Purism is wonderful, but it is a lost cause these days. Americanization converts everything to the lowest common denominator. If you want it done right, you usually have to do it yourself. And then you get to drink alone. If people want to call cocktails “martinis”, it’s fine by me, as long as they have a name distinct enough to distinguish it from the real thing. I do agree, however, with those who bemoan the lack of bartending skills of those only familiar with these new drinks. A proper martini should be a staple of any competent bartender. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/58 "2006-01-04T20:46:20Z")
> [@flight via Ian Fleming](#): > > “Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it’s ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon-peel. Got it?” According to [this site,](http://www.tjbd.co.uk/james-bond-drink.htm) the Vesper was really supposed to be made with Lillet _vermouth_, making it basically a vodka-gin martini. (Kina Lillet is a quinine wine tonic, like Dubonnet.) ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/59 "2006-01-04T22:22:39Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > According to [this site,](http://www.tjbd.co.uk/james-bond-drink.htm) the Vesper was really supposed to be made with Lillet _vermouth_, making it basically a vodka-gin martini. (Kina Lillet is a quinine wine tonic, like Dubonnet.) So was this a publisher’s mistake then? To my knowledge it has been that way in all printings. Perhaps Fleming himself wrote it down wrong as it is his friend who supposedly said it was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315/60 "2006-01-04T22:48:56Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Yet another problem with modern martini glasses; they’re so flat that the glass scrubber (it’s that wirring noise you hear when the bartender is cleaning glasses; it has two or three spinning brushes that clean the inside and outside of the glass quickly) can’t wash them, so they’re washed “by hand”. Generally, this means that they’re dunked in cleaning solution, dunked in soap remover, then dunked in water without being scrubbed; and because the glasses are so fragile they’re often not cleaned very thouroughly. Remind me never to drink anything in a martini glass again. That’s disgusting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-is-not-a-f-king-martini/338315.md?page=4)