# That Latin on Gus's Sign in Lonesome Dove? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326 "2004-10-03T15:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/1 "2004-10-03T15:20:04Z")
Can anyone translate it for me? I’d type out the Latin here but my copy of the book is packed away as part of our babyproofing crusade. I thought I’d take a chance that some knowledgeable person had translated it and would recall what it said. Thx! ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/2 "2004-10-03T15:33:18Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > Can anyone translate it for me? > > I’d type out the Latin here but my copy of the book is packed away as part of our babyproofing crusade. I thought I’d take a chance that some knowledgeable person had translated it and would recall what it said. > > Thx! I replied to the first one. All of them have discussions of what the quote means as well: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=127286&highlight=lonesome+dove](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=127286&highlight=lonesome+dove) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=135042&highlight=lonesome+dove](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=135042&highlight=lonesome+dove) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=55598&highlight=lonesome+dove](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=55598&highlight=lonesome+dove) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/3 "2004-10-03T15:33:55Z")
Googled “lonesome dove” “latin”. [Got this](http://www.library.txstate.edu/swwc/ld/ldex081a1.html): > [@](#): > > **What does the phrase _uva uvam vivendo varia fit_ mean?** > > The Latin phrase that appears on the Hat Creek Cattle Company sign in “Lonesome Dove” is a garbled corruption, and there’s no direct translation. It derives from the scholia to Juvenal 2.81 which cites the proverb “uva uvam videndo varia fit” This means something like “a grape changes color [i.e., ripens] when it sees [another] grape” > > Novelist Larry McMurtry probably intentionally misused the Latin, perhaps to make a point about Augustus McCrae’s tenuous understanding of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/4 "2004-10-03T15:44:34Z")
Here’s a copy of The Hat Creek Cattle Company sign on [Ebay](http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=790&item=3842968279&rd=1#ebayphotohosting). IMDB’s quotation from [Lonesome Dove](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096639/quotes) [referring to the Hat Creek Cattle Company sign] Woodrow Call : …and if that ain’t bad enough you got all them Greek words on there, too. Gus McCrae : I told you, Woodrow, a long time ago it ain’t Greek, it’s Latin. Woodrow Call : Well what does it say in Latin? [Gus blusters some gibberish] Woodrow Call : For all you know it invites people to rob us. Gus McCrae : Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I’m concerned. I’d like a chance t’ shoot at a educated man once in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/5 "2004-10-03T15:45:16Z")
The phrase is “Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit.” It’s basically nonsense. It means something like. “A grape seeing a grape becomes ripe.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/6 "2004-10-03T15:46:18Z")
I really should preview once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/7 "2004-10-03T15:49:56Z")
Apparently I should google - it really never occurred to me to check that way. Thanks for the info! I so love that book. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/8 "2004-10-03T15:52:04Z")
What about that proverb, anyway? Is it like “If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.”? Or is it more positive? (“You will succeed if you follow a good example.”) Or is it about competition? (“One is content to be as one is, until he sees a competitor.”) “A grape ripens when it sees another grape” seems to mean that one tends to become the example it follows. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/9 "2004-10-03T15:54:08Z")
Isn’t that Jake’s fate? He becomes the company he keeps. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/10 "2004-10-03T17:45:57Z")
And here I thought the OP was going to ask about the carving on the hitching post, “TOTI EMUL ESTO”. Which is a bit easier to translate. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/11 "2004-10-03T20:48:03Z")
**pig Latin**!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/12 "2005-06-25T16:24:29Z")
Hi all… Reading “Comanche Moon” now- there is a passage where Inish Scull is caged next to a cliff by the Black Vaquero. To keep his spirits up, he scratches out a large passage in Greek (I think its Homer?)… any clue to what that says? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/13 "2005-06-25T16:28:18Z")
> [@Smokinjbc](#): > > Hi all… > > Reading “Comanche Moon” now- there is a passage where Inish Scull is caged next to a cliff by the Black Vaquero. To keep his spirits up, he scratches out a large passage in Greek (I think its Homer?)… any clue to what that says? Can you transcribe it here? Is it in Greek letters? ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/14 "2005-06-25T16:33:24Z")
Hi, Yes, it is in Greek letters- so not able to transcribe. And it is “enough Homer for one day”, which is what Inish is thinking at the end of the chapter.If anyone has the paperback version of the book, its on page 348. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/15 "2005-06-25T17:23:07Z")
I found the passage by using the [Amazon search function](http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0671020641/104-6912791-7935941?v=search-inside&keywords=homer) This is what it gave me. > [@](#): > > “… EIATO IIENTHKONTA EEAAI IIYPOE AIOOMENOIO. IIIIIOI AE KPI AEYKON EPEIITOMENOI KAI OAYPAE, EETAOTEE IIAP OXEEOIN, EYOPONON HO MIMNON. It was Homer enough for one day, Scull felt. He had put the words of a Greek on the face of a cliff …” First, I should say that Homeric Greek is earlier and different from the Classical Greek that I’ve studied but by looking at the above, it appears to be gibberish. It’s just random jumbles of Greek letters. It may be a garbled rendering of some actual passage from Homer but it contains a lot of nonsensical spellings and meaningless runs of letters. There is no Greek word, for instance, that would contain five iotas in a row as “IIIIIOI” does above. Is the character supposed to be addled or delirious during this bit? I think that’s what the passage is conveying. There’s some remembered knowledge of Greek (and maybe Homer) in the scribbling, but it appears to be garbled beyond recognition. ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/16 "2005-06-25T17:37:12Z")
Hi, It looks different , although similar in the book- I know nothing about Greek so I don’t know if what Amazon quotes is the “english letter” version of it. But I don’t see any word that looks like "IIIIIOI ". The character in question is trying (so far successfully) to stay sane in an extreme situation. I would not consider him to be confused at this point… they just cut off his eyelids so maybe that will change- been awhile since I read this book :). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-latin-on-guss-sign-in-lonesome-dove/267326/17 "2005-06-25T18:01:21Z")
Maybe the Amazon transliteration is garbled. The “IIIIOI” would look the same in Greek letters as in English.