# That murder by rebirthing case. Warning: beyond vile. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2001, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468 "2001-07-06T07:47:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/41 "2001-07-08T03:15:16Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Stoid \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Would you be willing to give me a definition of “evil”? Because what I understand to be evil I do not see anywhere in this whole sad story. There is a simplistic definition of evil as just “causing harm” but I find that to be a poor use of the word, since one can cause harm many ways and in many circumstances without being what most people understand to be evil.\*\* Considering that **Fenris** called me a brother in another [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=76899), I’m sure he won’t mind if I chime in. Not that he really needs someone to step in on his behalf… I’m on AOL. (don’t snicker) At Keyword: Dictionary, I type in the word “evil.” I get the following: > [@](#): > > evil [1] (adjective) evil_er or evil_ler; evil_est or evil_lest > > [Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil] > > First appeared before 12th Century > 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED \ > b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct \ > 2 a archaic : INFERIOR > b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE \ > c : DISAGREEABLE \ > 3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS \ > b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY I think that the definition of “morally reprehensible” will suffice in this case. To turn away from a child that is crying out in fear and distress is morally reprehensible. What was done to this child was evil, by persons whose behaviors marked them as acting in an evil fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/42 "2001-07-08T03:38:06Z")
Fenris: Oh I think it was evil all right. All my experiences with evil tell me that evil usually wears a kindly smiling “trust me” face. Evil says “It was trying to help,” or “I had no choice,” or “it would have happened anyway.” **Anybody** who raises a kid responsibly knows about the dangers of suffocation. One of the most common ways to suffocate somebody is to push a pillow onto them. Suffocation or drowning, and being burned are supposedly the two most painful ways to die. **Any** reasonable person would know that this “therapy” is a dangerous and foolhardy thing to try. You don’t fuck around with a little kid’s oxygen supply. Whatever the motivation, they tortured this child and abused it to the same extent any pedophile or child abuser could, with the same results. They deserve the same consideration. Stoid: Let me give you another example. Perhaps the defining moment of my life was being badly burned as a teenager. It completely changed my outlook on life, improved my worldview, my values, and my goals. Suppose I suggest that severely burning troubled teens is a therapy for straightening them out (it worked for me.) The pain and suffering is very much like a rebirth, so the same reasons should apply. So if I go around dipping kids limbs in gasoline and lighting them on fire with the full consent of the parents and for the noblest of reasons, what do you think my motivations are worth? I guess if one or two get out of control and somebody burns to death, I really can’t be punished for an accident, can I? I really can’t believe you’re taking this tack. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/43 "2001-07-08T03:49:35Z")
\*\* Fenris \*\* It’s evident we differ on this. I think we have both stated our positions rather thoroughly, I fully expect that we will continue to disagree. There is one thing I’d like to point out though. I find it almost amusing that you would say these things to me: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \* \*\* > Please don’t tell me what I can and cannot do. I am a human. I am able to put imagine the horror it would be to helpless and tortured. > > I don’t appreciate the implacation that because I won’t feel bad for a torturer or someone who stood by and allowed torture to occur, that I’m unable to feel bad for multiple people. > \*\* Look closer at your previous post to me, as well as this: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Please don’t project the sad fact that you apparently cannot onto me. > \*\* and try not to be so ready next time to throw accusations about people personally, perhaps you won’t find anything similar being done to you, eh? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \* \*\* > I really can’t believe you’re taking this tack. > \*\* And I can’t believe you insist on being so simplistic about it. But you do, and you will no doubt continue to. I’ve had my say, and that’s all I wanted to do. I’m done. stoid PS: Fenris, another point you had wrong: “as far as she knew, had no benign intentions.”. Not so. The whole procedure, what she was going to go through, and most importantly, what the purpose of it was, was explained to her in detail before they began. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/44 "2001-07-08T03:54:44Z")
Ummm. I’m not Fenris. Apparently your confused. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/45 "2001-07-08T03:57:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*\*\* Fenris \*\* It’s evident we differ on this. I think we have both stated our positions rather thoroughly, PS: Fenris, another point you had wrong: “as far as she knew, had no benign intentions.”. Not so. The whole procedure, what she was going to go through, and most importantly, what the purpose of it was, was explained to her in detail before they began. > \*\* Yes. They evidently explained that she’d be “tortured”. How does that equate to “benign intentions”? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/46 "2001-07-08T04:15:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Ummm. I’m not Fenris. Apparently your confused. \*\* No, I just forgot to insert "Scylla: into that last quote. But I’m not done anyway I realized. The reason your analogy blows is because you and I and everyone knows that setting people on fire is wrong, dangerous, deadly, and permanently scarring. \* Until this incident \* no such awareness was attached to the rebirthing process. In fact, the process is not deadly normally…these people did it wrong and were reckless. There are different components to this that are being freely mixed. 1. Attachment disorder therapies in general 2. Watkins practice of generally accepted therapies for the disorder 3. Watkins practice of rebirth therapy 4. Watkins practice of extreme rebirth therapy 5. Watkins’ motives and intentions in her actions 6. The mother’s motives and intentions Probably a few others I’m missing. Are you saying that rebirthing is bad therapy or deadly? are you saying that attachment disorder therapies in general are evil because it’s upsetting to the children? So on and so forth. A review of this thread will show that all these ideas and more are being mixed together. I suggest that anyone who just doesn’t get it and really believes that “evil” was done here first go read the long article that I believe Fenris linked to. Secondly, ask yourself the question I keep asking: what is the source of the “evil”? Why do you find it so easy to believe that malevolence is at work here, as opposed to arrogance, stupidity, carelessness…none of which are in the definition of “evil”. This is not a simple story with simple answers, and I think you want it to be. I think it is right for Watkins to be made to take responsibility. She was arrogant and careless, to such a degree that death resulted. She was not evil, and she shouldn’t have to suffer the rest of her life. But she needs to pay a price. Not for using a therapy that some people disagree with, but for applying it badly and carelessly. The therapy itself is not at fault. I don’t think the mother did anything that should could have seen as wrong at the time she did it, based on what I know of her situation. Now I’m done. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/47 "2001-07-08T05:02:55Z")
A couple of things crossed my mind as I read these posts… First, regardless of whether the therapy in question is legit or not, you’ve REALLY got to wonder about its execution. Boxers are weighed before each match to make sure they’re in whatever weight class (lightweight, heavyweight, etc.) and that the fight will be more or less even, yes? This is done because, theoretically anyway, a person of greater body mass than the opponent would have an unfair advantage just because of body mass, yes? Bearing this in mind, shouldn’t the very number of people laying on top of Candice - much less their individual body weight - have set up a red flag in SOMEONE’S mind before the rebirthing began? I’m not a nurse, but even _I_ know that if I horseplay with one of my nephews, I have to be more careful with the younger/smaller ones than I do with the 11-year-old who is my height and weight (yeah, he’s HUGE for his age and I’m, well, not). And this is horseplay I’m talking about, while the therapists were _leaning_ on a supine, wrapped-up person. Again, someone’s common sense should’ve been waiving a red flag and I’m amazed that either it didn’t OR it did but wasn’t acted on. I can’t see why someone in the room - a grand total of five adults, at least three of whom are in the medical field, right? - didn’t suggest that only one person lean on the blanket (no pillows, thanks) while the shouting gets done from the sidelines. Just doesn’t make sense to me. So for this reason I side with the people who are laying at least part of the blame on the mother in this. As for the hair, Candice wasn’t shaved bald but her once long and curly locks were lobbed off (sorry, don’t remember which articles I read that in - there’s been so many). That really creeped me out - it reminds me of an orphanage scene in “Jane Eyre.” Does anyone else remember it? Lastly, what freaked me out the most about the “snuff film” dialog at the beginning of this thread was what must’ve been going through Candice’s mind when a therapist told her to “go ahead and die.” I doubt whoever said that was being literal, but how must it have sounded to a ten-year-old who may or may not have grasped the abstract concept of “rebirthing,” and who was really suffering? I need to hug my nephews now. Patty ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/48 "2001-07-08T13:34:45Z")
Stoid: I am saying that suffocating a child is inherently evil. The sheet and the pillows suffocate a child. THat’s what they are **supposed** to do. That’s the point of them. It’s supposed to cause intense pain, discomfort and anxiety. As for the difference between burning a kid and this. Well, my scars are healed. Hers never will. I see no valid difference between these two examples. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/49 "2001-07-08T13:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*Now I’m done. > > stoid \*\* And thank God for that. You’re an idiot. I simply can’t understand you at all. How can you support any of those monsters? Not that I’m surprised, mind you. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Xploder_ > > \*\*Hey Stoid…do you ever agree with anybody at all? > > Just wondering…\*\* Indeed… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/50 "2001-07-08T15:58:39Z")
Ferber is a lunatic. Abusing a child in distress isn’t healthy. PhD’s don’t mean dick-IN the context of this thread…( eeeasy there…) . It’s a piece of paper. Try raising a REAL CHILD, instead of writing a thesis about raising a child. Please. :rolleyes: Ignoring a child who is athsmatic and then goes into respiratory distress is abusive. Watching them defecate and vomit isn’t healthy. It really matters not if those acts are of themselves not always indicators of severe trauma. Watching them die as a result is manslaughter. IMHO. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/51 "2001-07-08T15:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The reason your analogy blows is because you and I and everyone knows that setting people on fire is wrong, dangerous, deadly, and permanently scarring. Until this incident no such awareness was attached to the rebirthing process. Bullshit. They bound, suffocated, and beat her. Everyone I know seems able to see that as dangerous from the get go. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/52 "2001-07-08T18:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\* > How can you support any of those monsters? > \*\* Apparently, Airman, you choose to see the world as jet black and pure white, as evidenced by this comment. That you think “support” and “refusing to demonize” are identical proves that. I’m sure it makes your life easy and your decisions simple. I, on the other hand, see the world in a thousand shades of gray. It is definitely more complicated, but I prefer it that way. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/53 "2001-07-08T18:44:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I, on the other hand, see the world in a thousand shades of gray. It is definitely more complicated, but I prefer it that way. How noble. The rest of us just prefer to see the world the way it **is.** Please explain the shade difference between burning and suffocation. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/54 "2001-07-08T18:57:25Z")
Stoid, here’s the thing. When the adoptive mother took Candace to the ‘therapists’, one of two things happened, I’m sure: 1. They sat her down and explained exactly what they were going to do (cover her head, restrict her breathing, apply five hundred pounds of pressure, send her through an ‘uncomfortable’ series of events, etc.) or 1. They refused to tell her what they were going to do at all, just asking her to let the process happen. (if there’s a third thing, tell me) If I were a mother of sane mind and body either 1 or 2 would have elicited the response of: No Way…see you later. That’s where I see the evil. She either blindly let therapists do whatever they wanted to her child OR knew exactly what they were going to do and thought that was fine. jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/55 "2001-07-08T19:48:45Z")
Let me get this straight. The mother WATCHED as a man took a pillow, and put it over her DAUGHTER’S HEAD and SAT ON IT. Um…way to go! It seems Newmaker was more concerned about Candace LOVING her, than about helping Candace GET BETTER. Jesus, these people are sick. Letting a kid vent rage-fine. That’s healthy as long as it’s not overdone. But calling her twerp, sleep in your own vomit and poop, suffocate, and die? Jesus, these people are monsters. If this isn’t evil, WHAT IS? > [@](#): > > The reason your analogy blows is because you and I and everyone knows that setting people on fire is wrong, dangerous, deadly, and permanently scarring. Until this incident no such awareness was attached to the rebirthing process. In fact, the process is not deadly normally…these people did it wrong and were reckless. It doesn’t take a genius to know that it is wrong, dangerous, deadly and reckless to wrap a child in blankets from head to toe, pile on pillows and SIT on the child so that the child is in danger of SUFFOCATION. And to justify it by comparing it to BIRTH, as the women did. At birth, a baby is still attached to a mother’s umbilical cord. Jesus. I’m gonna be sick. I am seriously seriously disgusted. I cannot believe that Newmaker was innocent. She is a pediatric nurse for Chrissakes! Surely she knows the dangers of suffocation and asphixiating on one’s own FUCKING VOMIT!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/56 "2001-07-08T20:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > Apparently, Airman, you choose to see the world as jet black and pure white, as evidenced by this comment. That you think “support” and “refusing to demonize” are identical proves that. I’m sure it makes your life easy and your decisions simple. > \*\* Stoid-- your worldview is neither worthy,nor meritorious; neither sophisticated nor worldly. > [@](#): > > \*\*I, on the other hand, see the world in a thousand shades of gray. It is definitely more complicated, but I prefer it that way. > > stoid\*\* This is called moral bankruptcy. Yours. Not anybody else’s. You have admitted, in the above quote, that you no longer accept the ideas of “right” and “wrong”. This is called moral bankruptcy. You deserve all the criticism you get in this forum, in other forums, or in person. I hope you have somebody in your life that can grab you by the nuts & twist until you come to your damned senses. **Until** you come to your senses, you are a total loss as a human being and a waste of space. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/57 "2001-07-08T20:49:57Z")
[http://www.denver-rmn.com/news/1029cand1.shtml](http://www.denver-rmn.com/news/1029cand1.shtml) Apparently, Stoid, Jeane was most troubled by the fact that Candace wasn’t affectionate enough. Which seems natural, given she had been bounced around so much. During her screams, she wasn’t worried about her “daughter’s” condition, only that she was “rejecting” her. If you don’t consider that evil, I’d hate to see how far someone has to go before they ARE evil. It’s called selfishness. Yes, the article I linked to is deliberately written to induce tears, but my god, what else can you say? > [@](#): > > Jeane begins to feel rejected. Candace isn’t trying to be reborn to her. Jesus. What a vile woman. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/58 "2001-07-08T21:53:52Z")
If you love someone, let them go. If they don’t come back, crush them under heavy weights until they choke to death on their own vomit. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/59 "2001-07-08T21:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* > Please explain the shade difference between burning and suffocation. \*\* The \*\* intent \*\* was not to suffocate, although it was the result, because they were (one more time!) arrogant and reckless. That is the part that so many people refuse to acknowledge. It’s interesting how the characterizations of what happened keep escalating. No one seems willing to discuss this calmly, answering the questions I have posed, addressing the different issues, just about everyone seems happy to attack me personally for not getting on the “That mother is an evil witch who sent her daughter to be tortured to death: BURN HER!” bandwagon. It doesn’t matter how nasty and rude anybody gets, it’s not going to convince me that this attitude is correct. (I wasn’t referring to you, Scylla, you have been perfectly calm and civil, thank you.) In fact, the bad behavior, exaggeration, and hostility do more to convince me I’m right than the reverse. And since this is now becoming an abuse fest directed at me personally, I am well and truly done with it. Enjoy yourselves. Be proud. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468/60 "2001-07-08T22:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*Apparently, Airman, you choose to see the world as jet black and pure white, as evidenced by this comment. That you think “support” and “refusing to demonize” are identical proves that. I’m sure it makes your life easy and your decisions simple. > > I, on the other hand, see the world in a thousand shades of gray. It is definitely more complicated, but I prefer it that way.\*\* You almost leave me speechless. Do you ever have anything to say that’s not ambivalent? There are no “shades of gray” here. The child in question here was killed in a malicious and cruel manner. Can’t you see that? The girl should never have died. As far as my life being easy goes, you can **kiss my ass**. I have been through an incredible amount of mental abuse. You can’t even begin to fathom the depths to which I have fallen and come back from. My decision making process is black and white, without a doubt. It’s because of people like you, amoral and bankrupt, that it is. You would support the most unspeakable atrocities and then attempt to justify them. I truly feel sorry for you. I have nothing more to say to you, now or in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-murder-by-rebirthing-case-warning-beyond-vile/71468.md?page=4)