# That nut killed by a Grizzly bear In alaska? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 26, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089 "2008-01-26T15:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Satellite\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Satellite\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satellite_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/21 "2008-01-26T21:34:59Z")
Somewhat related, I did a satellite install for a guy named Chris McLellan, last week. Although I didn’t meet him, as he was in Edmonton for surgery, while I was there, there was a guy there who told me that he (Mr. McLellan) was this guy —\> [http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2007/08/24/4444297.html](http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2007/08/24/4444297.html) Wow. S^G ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/22 "2008-01-27T00:46:36Z")
First off, for those who only know of Timothy Treadwell from the movie “Grizzly Man”, if you are objective enough to consider an alternate view, I would recommend the book “The Grizzly Maze” by Nick Jans. I thought Herzog’s movie was well done, but it portrayed the impression that Herzog obtained of Treadwell. I think Jans’ book provides a good counter-view, and in particular goes into great detail about the factors contributing to Treadwell and his girlfriend’s demise. I actually met Timothy Treadwell in ''92 or '93, and I contacted him a number of times for help and recommendations for a trip to Kodiak Island in '94. I had been to Alaska once before, and we brought a shotgun and had noise makers when we went hiking. At that time my view of grizzlies/brown bears was all that I had been taught from the media: they were bloodthirsty killers and only lived to kill (humans included). After seeing Treadwell’s presentation (slideshow to which he narrated), it completely changed my view of grizzlies. In particular he showed the similarities to dogs - how playful and affectionate they can be (with/to each other). I remember leaving that presentation marvelling at how rare it is that we experience something that totally changes your world view (one that you had held for a long time). So when I saw the movie, it was disturbing. I had seen Treadwell in a number of documentaries in the years since meeting him, and he seemed to be pushing things further with his interaction with the bears. Then I saw the movie, and some of the stuff he was doing, and it was clear this trend had continued. But I don’t think Treadwell ever lost his respect for how dangerous these animals were. I’ve seen the juvenile bears wrestle, and Treadwell would have seen this as well as serious encounters between bears regularly. So he would have known how to “read” the bears he was familiar with. So was he a “dare devil” that did things that he probably shouldn’t have with the bears ? I would have to say yes. But was he nutso/crazy/an idiot for finally being killed (and eaten) and his girlfriend being killed ? I don’t believe so. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He knew this, and it was not his original plan to be there at that time. But he decided to take his chances, and it turned out badly. I’m sure I’ll get a lot of flack for this, but the analogy of the soldier that is killed on patrol in Iraq comes to mind. It is a dangerous place at a dangerous time. He is aware of this. He has options to not go on that patrol. But he is doing what he feels is the right thing to do. If Treadwell was anything, he was passionate. He did see himself not only as the “guardian” of his bears, but of all grizzly bears. His being there was the right thing for him to be doing. If even 10% of the people attending his presentations came away with the change of view and education on grizzly/brown bears that I did, then I would say Treadwell was “successful” in his mission of protecting the bears. Conservation begins with education, and Treadwell achieved this. The movie itself, despite it’s view that Treadwell was a nutcase, also depicts Treadwell’s point: he managed to live among these bears for 10+ summers, and survived all that time. (All) grizzly bears are clearly not bloodthirsty killers who only live to kill. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/23 "2008-01-27T02:30:58Z")
[QUOTE=Chefguy] There’s another guy up here who is now living in bear country and hand feeds them, etc. (which is illegal). I would suspect it’s just a matter of time before we get to read about him becoming fertilzer. [/QUOTE] Fo rthe sake of next year’s dead pool, do you have a name? ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/24 "2008-01-27T02:41:23Z")
Here’s a [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333210) (started by yours truly) about the movie, in which people made some pretty insightful posts. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/25 "2008-01-27T02:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Fo rthe sake of next year’s dead pool, do you have a name? [/QUOTE] [Charlie Vandergaw](http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearfarm.asp), who apparently has no qualms about putting others in danger, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/26 "2008-01-27T04:51:34Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] One of the saddest things is that his looneytoons the-bears-are-my-buddies fixation got his girlfriend killed as well. [/QUOTE] Not sad at all, IMO. It ensures that we do not have little nutjob kids from them running around. She was living with him and supporting his delusions, rather than getting him into a treatment program as he obviously needed. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/27 "2008-01-27T05:10:53Z")
> [@herzog](#): > > I’ve seen this madness before on a film set I laughed for about five minutes after this line. Nice. Question for anybody: Does he have any zoological background? I might have missed where that was explained? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/28 "2008-01-27T05:17:05Z")
Perhaps of interest: [Grizzly Man - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/29 "2008-01-27T05:36:09Z")
My vote: He was crazy. And I’d say the girlfriend was not packing a full deck either. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/30 "2008-01-27T05:48:31Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] My vote: He was crazy. And I’d say the girlfriend was not packing a full deck either. [/QUOTE] Pretty much a given considering she was dating him (My humble opinion anyhow). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/31 "2008-01-27T06:21:27Z")
Concerning _Grizzly Man_: For anyone familiar with Herzog’s feature films, the strange thing is that Timothy Treadwell is an oddly familiar kind of Herzog character. Like Aguirre or Fitzcarraldo, he is an obsessive and fairly loony character who embodies man’s hubristic encounter with nature, as well as the human capacity for self-deception. Heck, he even looks a bit like Klaus Kinski. The difference is, of course, that this guy was actually _real_. It feels like a case of reality eerily trespassing on fiction. It certainly seems to me that Treadwell and Herzog are a match made in Heaven. That said, it’s also the case that Herzog had access to about 100 hours of Treadwell’s footage, and only about 1% of that makes it into the movie. He has every opportunity through editing and storytelling to \*create \*a character, to fictionalize, and to tell a story that may well be as much of his own making as any “true” representation of what Treadwell was all about. Herzog has always made clear that he doesn’t draw a clear distinction between his feature films and his documentaries - there is reality and fiction in both. The truth that Herzog claims to be interested in is what he calls an “ecstatic” truth, which goes beyond mere facts, beyond what he calls “the truth of accountants” in traditional documentaries or _cinéma vérité_. This is the guy who has said that if facts were the most important thing in art, the phone book would be the most popular book in the world. The way the film maker creates his “truth” is in fact a running theme throughout _Grizzly Man_. A lot of Herzog’s focus is on Treadwell as a film maker, not as a naturalist, and on how Treadwell himself created himself as a character through his camera. Treadwell was a failed actor who descended into alcoholism and drug abuse (supposedly, according to his father in the movie, after missing out on the part of Woody in _Cheers_, bizarrely enough). The Treadwell we see in \*Grizzly Man \* is probably still an actor and a crazed artist first and foremost, attempting to create the persona of the naturalist and “eco warrior”. It’s really all about layers of deception and self-deception. In addition, the supporting cast that Herzog interviews and populates his movie with are also mostly people who seemingly can’t resist turning into actors when confronted with the camera (the coroner most obviously). Herzog doesn’t fight this, instead he milks it for what it’s worth. In any case, regardless what truth value it may have, _Grizzly Man_ is not only probably my favorite Herzog movie (alongside _Stroszek_), but it’s up there with my favorite movies ever, period. It’s a fantastic mix of comedy and tragedy, superbly funny throughout, but always with an undertone of impending doom. It tells a superb story in an incredibly refreshing way. I find it completely hypnotic. I’ve watched a downright silly number of times. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/32 "2008-01-27T13:01:45Z")
I think this is a wistful desire for some kind og “Garden of Eden”. Its the mentality that gives us Seaworld-where people think that killer whales and dolphins love us humans. I am guilty of it as well-I love my dog (I wish he could talk to me). But this Treadwell guy was really out of his mid-a 1200 pound grizzly bear (who is hungry and has no fear of humans) is not something you casually approach. AS for the girlfriend-maybe she bought into the illusion as well. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/33 "2008-01-27T23:35:32Z")
Somewhere in heaven, Treadwell and Christopher McCandless are having a debate over which one was the bigger douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/34 "2008-01-28T14:54:22Z")
I don’t know if he was a nutter, but he wasn’t the shiniest coin in the fountain either. If you want to go commune with nature and have the animals be your friends and all of that St. Francis/Snow White nonsense then choose something like dolphins or maybe kittens. Grizzly bears? Not a chance in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/35 "2008-01-28T15:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=Cluricaun] If you want to go commune with nature and have the animals be your friends and all of that St. Francis/Snow White nonsense then choose something like dolphins or maybe kittens. [/QUOTE] Heck, even kittens can do quite a bit of damage… ---
**Author:** ![TJVM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@TJVM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJVM)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/36 "2008-01-28T23:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > the analogy of the soldier that is killed on patrol in Iraq comes to mind I don’t think that’s an apt analogy. A soldier patrolling in Iraq is not looking for bombs, and in fact does everything he can to avoid them. He’s simply willing to accept the risk of a bomb because it’s necessary to do his job. Treadwell sounds like a soldier who seeks out bomb-infested areas, and declines to ride in an armored vehicle or wear body armor, because he is interested in bombs and believes he has a special ability to prevent them from going off. > [@](#): > > If even 10% of the people attending his presentations came away with the change of view and education on grizzly/brown bears that I did, then I would say Treadwell was “successful” in his mission of protecting the bears. Conservation begins with education, and Treadwell achieved this. Protecting bears is a laudable goal, but if he was encouraging people to interact with bears in the wild, or portraying them as dog-like (i.e., friendly and playful), I don’t think he was doing anybody any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Mustakrakish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Mustakrakish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mustakrakish)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/37 "2008-01-29T00:09:11Z")
Is it possible that his bringing his girlfriend along was a major contributing factor to his being attacked? The bears might have been used to him, but not his girlfriend. No big loss, though. One more dead nutso new-age type is a good thing in my book, it’s just a shame that they killed the bear that did it. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/38 "2008-01-29T00:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mustakrakish] Is it possible that his bringing his girlfriend along was a major contributing factor to his being attacked? The bears might have been used to him, but not his girlfriend. No big loss, though. One more dead nutso new-age type is a good thing in my book, it’s just a shame that they killed the bear that did it. [/QUOTE] To answer your question: no. Treadwell was leaving for the winter, as the bears were denning. He got to Kodiak airport and was unable to get a seat on the flight. Angry, he decided to return to the area, even though it was very late in the season; much later than at any other time he had visited. Most or all of the habituated bears were denned up by then, and the only one (apparently) still up and about was a bear that was sick and starving. Habituated or not, a starving predator will come after easy prey, which any unarmed human is. The bear tried to catch and kill the pilot who showed up to take Treadwell out. He had forgotten to include a weapon along with the other survival gear required on bush planes, but managed to get to his aircraft and depart. He went for help, and when they returned had to kill the bear in order to get near the remains. I’ll leave any comments about your characterization to others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/39 "2008-01-29T01:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=cormac262] But was he nutso/crazy/an idiot for finally being killed (and eaten) and his girlfriend being killed ? I don’t believe so. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He knew this, and it was not his original plan to be there at that time. But he decided to take his chances, and it turned out badly. I’m sure I’ll get a lot of flack for this, but the analogy of the soldier that is killed on patrol in Iraq comes to mind. It is a dangerous place at a dangerous time. He is aware of this. He has options to not go on that patrol. But he is doing what he feels is the right thing to do. If Treadwell was anything, he was passionate. He did see himself not only as the “guardian” of his bears, but of all grizzly bears. His being there was the right thing for him to be doing. [/QUOTE] I readily admit I don’t have as much time invested in bears but I’ve seen documentaries that explained the nature of bears well enough to know better. They are fully capable of stalking someone with the intent to digest. This guy was playing games. He was a good intentioned, self taught, bear snack. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089/40 "2008-01-29T01:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=TJVM] I don’t think that’s an apt analogy. A soldier patrolling in Iraq is not looking for bombs, and in fact does everything he can to avoid them. He’s simply willing to accept the risk of a bomb because it’s necessary to do his job. Treadwell sounds like a soldier who seeks out bomb-infested areas, and declines to ride in an armored vehicle or wear body armor, because he is interested in bombs and believes he has a special ability to prevent them from going off. [/QUOTE] Actually he is walking in a mine field stomping his feet on the ground. (Treadwell, not the soldier) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-nut-killed-by-a-grizzly-bear-in-alaska/435089.md?page=3)