# That song is kinda rape-y, isn't it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693 "2016-03-11T22:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/21 "2016-03-12T23:38:48Z")
The Mentors, who played “rape rock”. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/22 "2016-03-12T23:42:50Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I was going to make a thread along these lines a few months ago when I listened to [“The Battle of Kookamonga”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0mGFjAySTw) by Homer and Jethro (winner of a Grammy, believe it or not). I thought to myself “I like ‘The Battle of New Orleans’ and I like novelty songs, so I should love this!” > > Wait – it’s a “humorous” song about a troop of Boy Scouts who spy on some nude Girl Scouts and then they chase after them in order to “catch” and “rub” them? Ick. That’s not the worst of it. At the end the Girl Scouts wind up with Marines - so it isn’t kid on kid, it is adult on kid. Double yick. But back when it came out I don’t remember any controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/23 "2016-03-13T02:52:01Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Don’t know about the skit but the song isn’t rape-y. It’s two people’s version of consensual fun over the summer. Sure his asshole friend asks if it was rape but, as per Sandy, it wasn’t. I was going more for the joke. But if you want to take it seriously, Danny never responded to the question of whether or not the girl he met over the summer “put up a fight”. But it’s notable that Danny’s close friend Kenickie thought it was a reasonable question to ask Danny and, outside of the parody I linked to, neither Danny or anyone else was shocked by the question. So we have to conclude that while Sandy may not have put up a fight, other women have done so in the past and everyone thought it was reasonable to ask Danny if he had had to force this particular girl to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/24 "2016-03-13T11:18:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s not the worst of it. At the end the Girl Scouts wind up with Marines - so it isn’t kid on kid, it is adult on kid. Double yick. > But back when it came out I don’t remember any controversy. The Who’s _A Quick One_ (1967?) is like this – meant to be humorous, so knowingly “rapey,” yet its existence tells you something about the norms of the time and place. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/25 "2016-03-13T11:28:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > _Well, he took little Susie to the junior prom, > Excitable boy, they all said, > And he raped her and killed her, then he took her home, > Excitable boy, they all said, > Well, he’s just an excitable boy._ > > - Warren Zevon But this is different than, say, Foreigner’s Seventeen. Excitable Boy is a black-humored songwriter talking about a how society deals with sociopaths with a sardonic wit. No different than, say, **Oingo Boingo’s Only a Lad**. Foreigner’s Seventeen is a guy bullying a teenage girl, as is that Wang Chung line that seems to suggest you should force a blowjob on your date. Fun times :(:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/26 "2016-03-13T12:06:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I was going more for the joke. > > But if you want to take it seriously, Danny never responded to the question of whether or not the girl he met over the summer “put up a fight”. But it’s notable that Danny’s close friend Kenickie thought it was a reasonable question to ask Danny and, outside of the parody I linked to, neither Danny or anyone else was shocked by the question. > > So we have to conclude that while Sandy may not have put up a fight, other women have done so in the past and everyone thought it was reasonable to ask Danny if he had had to force this particular girl to have sex. Or, you can conclude Danny’s friend was simply asking whether or not Sandy was pressurised into having sex with Danny. The lyric writers may also have chosen that line as it simply rhymed with _love at first sight_. I think the line is quite reasonable for a wannabe gang member(and likely virgin) to ask in front of wannabe gang member friends. As a bonus it rhymed, and was an excellent juxtaposition to _love at first sight_ sung by the girls. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/27 "2016-03-13T12:14:15Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Oh sure - if it is The Intruder by Peter Gabriel or even Possum Kingdom by The Toadies I get it. This type of derivative macho stuff, less for me. > > ETA another one: **Wang Chung’s** Dance Hall days. “Take your baby by the ears, play upon her darkest fears.” Just crap. That’s a pretty novel interpretation for “Dance Hall Days”; almost every lyric is cryptic and strange (“Take your baby by the wrist, And in her mouth an amethyst”). I think it’s a stretch to consider anything in it to be rape-y. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/28 "2016-03-13T12:18:08Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > That’s a pretty novel interpretation for “Dance Hall Days”; almost every lyric is cryptic and strange (“Take your baby by the wrist, And in her mouth an amethyst”). I think it’s a stretch to consider anything in it to be rape-y. I Googled “What is Wang Chung’s Dance Hall Days about?” and one of the first hits is Paste Magazine’s “secretly horrifying lyrics.” 😉 It is funny, but it does reinforce the point that their lyrics are creepy. > **[Secretly Horrifying Song Lyrics: "Dance Hall Days" by Wang Chung](https://www.pastemagazine.com/music/wang-chung/secretly-horrifying-song-lyrics-dance-hall-days-by)** > > Paste Magazine is your source for the best music, movies, TV, comedy, videogames, books, comics, craft beer, politics and more. Discover your favorite albums and films. [QUOTE=Paste] **Take you baby by the hair** Oh good, we’re back to the disturbing advice section. **And pull her close and “there there there”** It doesn’t make it better when you console someone after manhandling their hair, hands, and heels, Wang Chung guy. Have you noticed that all his commands are highly specific? It’s like he’s reading from his personal nightmare journal. This is a sure sign of a pyschopath. It’s the same way some serial killers need to arrange their dead victims like a famous painting, or make a coat from their skin Buffalo Bill style. There’s always a weirdly directed urge underlying the violence, and Wang Chung guy seems to be acting out his own private rituals here. Bottom line: If Wang Chung guy is around, avoid dance halls for a few days. NOT IN THE DANCE HALL, WANG CHUNG! THIS IS NOT THE TIME OR THE PLACE! **Take your baby by the ears And play upon her darkest fears** Oh my God oh my God oh my God. Troy was right, this man should be arrested. I’ve endured a lot of frightening lines in the past month, but this one might cut the deepest. I can feel it in the pit of my stomach. It feels like I’m tied to a chair in a basement. Although, if I’m being honest, I do kind of want to buy Wang Chung’s dance instructional video. I imagine it would be 30 minutes of violence and sinister monologues. So unconventional! I’m an awkward dancer, and maybe this is what I’ve been missing. I need to play upon fears more. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/29 "2016-03-13T13:50:20Z")
Whenever I hear folks trying to humorously parse lyrics, I think of how corny I thought that Steve Allen was (who I love) while doing the same. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/SpxhEoV5IsE/hqdefault.jpg "AU-DELÀ DE L'AVENUE D") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpxhEoV5IsE) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/30 "2016-03-13T13:59:52Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I thought for sure this was going to be about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside.” Yes! That’s the classic rapey song that gets played every holiday season. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/31 "2016-03-13T14:34:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes! That’s the classic rapey song that gets played every holiday season. I don’t really understand that interpretation. Yes, I get how “Baby It’s Cold Outside” could be **played** for rapeyness, with the woman genuinely reluctant and the man pressuring her. But I’ve never heard it sung that way: it’s always presented as though the woman is enjoying herself and really wants to stay but is just worried about her reputation. It may be that a lot of people who think “Baby It’s Cold Outside” sounds rapey are too young to remember situations in which women really wanted sexual activity, and were encouraging and consenting to sexual activity, but felt they had to tear themselves away from the consensual sexual activity for fear of how they’d be judged by others. Mind you, I think the current situation in which women are allowed sexual autonomy is a very positive change, and calling out rapeyness in earlier pop-song lyrics is perfectly legit. I just think “Baby It’s Cold Outside” isn’t a very good example because it’s actually about something much more nuanced than an unwilling woman and an importunate man. A song like “I Gotcha”, on the other hand, makes it very clear that the woman is unwilling: > [@](#): > > I gotcha, uh huh, huh > You thought I didn’t see ya now, didn’t ya, uh huh, huh > You tried to sneak by me now, didn’t ya, uh huh, huh > Now gimme what you promised me, give it here > Come on […] > > You made me a promise and you’re gonna stick to it > You shouldn’t have promised if you weren’t gonna do it > You saw me and ran in another direction > I’ll teach you to play with my affection > Now, give it here […] > > You never should’ve promised to me, gotcha > Give it on, here > I gotcha > > You thought you got away from me, didn’t ya? > I gotcha > Ha ha ha > Oh, I gotcha > > Give it on up, I gotcha > Give it on here, I gotcha > > You tried to sneak by me, now didn’t ya? > Ha ha > I gotcha > Oh, I gotcha On the other end of the spectrum, Zevon’s “Excitable Boy” and Zappa’s “Bobby Brown Goes Down” aren’t trying to make rape sound romantic or sexy or inspire any sympathy for the title character. They’re deliberately bringing in an incident of rape to help show what a horrible person the title character is. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/32 "2016-03-13T14:43:52Z")
I agree w/r/t Baby it’s Cold Outside. I hear it as a flirtation with two willing players. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/33 "2016-03-13T15:53:13Z")
I’m always amazed at how people get upset about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” but give Springsteen a pass for “Fire.” Perhaps it’s because Springsteen has a reputation as a liberal, or because so many women have found him genuinely attractive. But face it: in “Fire,” he’s forcing himself on an unwilling girl in his car. When she says unmistakably that she doesn’t want to have sex with him, he’s enough of an egomaniac to call her a liar and insist she DOES want it! But he’s the Boss, so he can get away with murder, while people obsess over Frank Loesser. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/34 "2016-03-13T16:25:15Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I’m always amazed at how people get upset about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” but give Springsteen a pass for “Fire.” What “people”? The only remark about Springsteen’s “Fire” in this thread has been **Mr Dibble** agreeing with you that it’s rapey. [QUOTE=astorian] But he’s the Boss, so he can get away with murder, while people obsess over Frank Loesser. [/QUOTE] Your grudgefest is somewhat undermined by the fact that the rapeyness of Springsteen’s song “Fire” is in fact widely discussed, even by those who admire his progressive politics, as [here:](http://2paragraphs.com/2016/02/did-bruce-springsteen-write-a-rape-song/) > [@](#): > > Though pop music is often in the cultural vanguard, pop lyrics aren’t always progressive. The ample misogyny in rap lyrics is a much cited example, but even a hero of the progressive movement – Bruce Springsteen, the Boss himself – can sound scary. Springsteen’s 1977 love song “Fire” sounds plainly threatening to sensitive ears in 2016. The lyrics do just what Thicke’s lyrics do – presuppose that the man knows better what the woman really wants. The words imply coercion and intimidation, sounding less like a declaration of love than a declaration of dominance/submission. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/35 "2016-03-13T16:41:26Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I agree w/r/t Baby it’s Cold Outside. I hear it as a flirtation with two willing players. _… Say, what’s in this drink? …_ Were there roofies in 1944? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/36 "2016-03-13T16:49:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Don’t know about the skit but the song isn’t rape-y. It’s two people’s version of consensual fun over the summer. Sure his asshole friend asks if it was rape but, as per Sandy, it wasn’t. Actually, per Sandy, there was no sex. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/37 "2016-03-13T16:54:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > _… Say, what’s in this drink? …_ > > Were there roofies in 1944? Nope, although there were the so-called “Mickey Finns”, or “knockout drops”, typically chloral hydrate. “What’s in this drink?” used to be a joking expression for _“I’m being rather daring or improper in my behavior and I’m going to blame it on the alcohol I’ve consumed”_. It did not mean _“I’m alarmed at my inexplicable physical impairment or incapacity and I’m literally worried that you deliberately drugged me”_. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/38 "2016-03-13T16:56:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope, although there were the so-called “Mickey Finns”, or “knockout drops”, typically chloral hydrate. > > “What’s in this drink?” used to be a joking expression for _“I’m being rather daring or improper in my behavior and I’m going to blame it on the alcohol I’ve consumed”_. > > It did not mean _“I’m alarmed at my inexplicable physical impairment or incapacity and I’m literally worried that you deliberately drugged me”_. That has always been my take as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/39 "2016-03-13T16:58:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > _… Say, what’s in this drink? …_ > > Were there roofies in 1944? Flunitrazepam wasn’t developed until the 1960s, but there was of course alcohol long before that. Depending on the way the line is delivered by the singer – and interpreted by the listener – it could be taken to mean something like “What’s the recipe for this delicious cocktail?” or “Whoa, this is a lot stronger than I was expecting!” The former isn’t “rape-y”, but the latter is. Key and Peele did a parody titled “[Just Stay for the Night](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc_F0zP9usU)” in which the man is obviously a would-be rapist, but the woman knows how to defend herself. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693/40 "2016-03-13T18:00:02Z")
I was thinking of “I’m gonna make you love me” by the Temptations, but upon reading the lyrics it’s more a guy saying he’ll do whatever he has to to be the kind of guy the woman could love. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-song-is-kinda-rape-y-isnt-it/748693.md?page=3)