# that symbol of snakes wrapped around a pole that we associate with medicine **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147 "2002-10-20T23:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zia\_nova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bc79bd/32.png) [@zia\_nova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zia_nova)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/1 "2002-10-20T23:55:40Z")
Okay, so you know what I mean? That symbol of the (I think) two snakes coiled around a pole? I read somewhere that it comes from Greek mythology. Hermes to be exact. He was a messanger but also he was associated with medicine or something. He went around with a pole that had snakes coiled around it and two wings at the top. When he touched the eyes of the dead with it, they went to the underworld. Cool, I thought. Then I heard somewhere that it actually can be traced right back to Babylon! Where did it originate? Does it have a name? And why do we use that symbol for medicine? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/2 "2002-10-21T00:06:37Z")
It’s called a caduceus. Knowing that allows you to turn up no end of material on it: [http://www.kcatech.com/corpsman/caduceus.htm](http://www.kcatech.com/corpsman/caduceus.htm) ---
**Author:** ![aeropl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f05b48/32.png) [@aeropl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aeropl)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/3 "2002-10-21T00:07:48Z")
Go to this site: [http://www.votive-candle-holders.com/pagan\_wiccan\_symbols\_of\_faith/caduceus\_symbol\_healing\_medicine.html](http://www.votive-candle-holders.com/pagan_wiccan_symbols_of_faith/caduceus_symbol_healing_medicine.html) Its a store so its accuracy could be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![aeropl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f05b48/32.png) [@aeropl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aeropl)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/4 "2002-10-21T00:09:46Z")
It’s called a caduceus. Go to this site: [http://www.votive-candle-holders.com/pagan\_wiccan\_symbols\_of\_faith/caduceus\_symbol\_healing\_medicine.html](http://www.votive-candle-holders.com/pagan_wiccan_symbols_of_faith/caduceus_symbol_healing_medicine.html) Its a store so its accuracy could be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/5 "2002-10-21T00:12:54Z")
It’s called a [caduceus](http://www.medhelpnet.com/caduceus.html) and the site listed explains Hermes creation of it. ---
**Author:** ![zia\_nova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bc79bd/32.png) [@zia\_nova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zia_nova)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/6 "2002-10-21T01:35:14Z")
Thanks folks! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/7 "2002-10-21T05:04:20Z")
The resemblance in structure between the [caduceus](http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/8751/_terapia/files/sushumna.gif) and the [kundalini](http://www.psychovision.ch/chakras/avalon1.gif) — the central _sushumna_ column with the _ida_ and _pingala_ twined around it, crossing at certain points along its length — the resemblance is quite uncanny. ---
**Author:** ![curwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/8 "2002-10-21T23:02:15Z")
That’s interesting - I always thought it came from the story in the Bible where Moses held up the snake to heal the people being bit by snakes. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/9 "2002-10-22T01:38:41Z")
At the page linked to by “don’t ask” the origin of the caduceus symbol as related to parasitic worm removal is mentioned. In my parasitology class we were told that a likely origin of the caduceus symbol was specifically the removal of the Guinea Worm (Dracunculus) by slowly wrapping the parasitic worm around a stick. Here’s [one web page](http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/quiz9697.htm#Nov1696) that supports the theory that Dracunculus was the origin of the caduceus symbol. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/10 "2002-10-22T02:47:53Z")
BTW, we moderns appear to have confused the [caduceus](http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41a/41a12.html) with its [two serpents](http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41b/41b33.html) with medical symbolism; the Greeks and Romans used it to indicate trade or commerce while [medicine was represented by the single snake on the Aesculapii staff](http://keck.ucsf.edu/seminars/0177.html). (Taken, of course, from [Aesculapius (Roman) or Asklepios (Greek)](http://www.in-ta.net/info/aesculapius/).) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/11 "2002-10-22T02:49:42Z")
(If your doctor uses a twin-snaked caduceus instead of a single-snake Aesculepii staff, consider that he might be more interested in commerce than in medicine.) ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/12 "2002-10-22T03:03:55Z")
I tend to agree with **Jomo Mojo’s** observation between the caduceus and the traditional Indian and Tibetan models of kundalini energy, a key concept in understanding Eastern medical theory. According to that model, the human body has a dual polarity of energy (for lack of a better Western word), winding up through the spinal cord, and that energy is key to keeping a balance of bodily health. The topping wings of the caduceus also corellate to the Eastern use of of the Lotus at the top of the head, symbolising the union between human and Divine, and ultimate healing. If the more functional parasite twining on a staff model is used, why are the wings included on the caduceus? To my mind, they symbolize a healing union between self and the Divine. I would hope that medical traditions, regardless of age, aren’t hinging their ability to drag worms out of the body as their highest hopes for the profession. I can see that I am opening myself up to some Ya Yee-ha New Ager judgement. My observation comes from studying Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese methods of medicine. I greatly respect those traditions, and see a great deal of knowledge that Western medicine can benefit from. The caduceus symbol seems to say the same thing , to me. It’s not about snakes, or worms, literally. It is an expression of an ancient concept of healing. Duality of energy (again, my lack of a word, I hope that a rational explaination will happen soon) , the staff is the Human body, and the wings are union with the Divine, and that’s Healing. For me, the Divine doesn’t mean a Creator God. I think it’s much weirder than that. I’ll leave it at that, 'cause I’m creeping out on a weird branch. But, the parallels between the caduceus and Eastern medical thought are too strong to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/13 "2002-10-22T06:03:27Z")
While parallels to other cultures are interesting, the fact that the ancients did not used the twin-snake caduceus as a symbol of medicine _for themselves_ tends to argue against a connection. The following site traces the image back to the Sumerian god Ningizzida from _The Epic of Gilgamesh_. Ningizzida was a fertility god, and while we certainly associate fertility and obstetrics, I am not aware of any other _direct_ link between fertility and medicine in most ancient cultures: [http://www.publicsafe.net/wand.htm](http://www.publicsafe.net/wand.htm) (I have looked at several of the “parasite” citations and find them less than persuasive. I know of no other confusion between snakes and worms in Mediterranean or Middle Eastern mythology. I also (perhaps ignorantly) find the tale of “winding” a parasite out of the body implausible, as every parasite I have encountered would simply break under that kind of force.) Note that in [this site’s recitation](http://www.uvm.edu/~jkeeler/medicine.html), they describe the ancient uses of the _kerykeion_ (none of them medical) and then simply throw in that Aesculapius was represented by a snake (note: not by two snakes) and then presume a connection. In a transitional coat of arms for early nineteenth century Venezuela, a caduceus is portrayed as a symbol of commerce, not of medicine. [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ve-f.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ve-f.html) In an Ecuadorian coat of arms from 1900, the caduceus again represents trade: [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ec](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ec))coa.html The earliest link that I can find between the caduceus and medicine is in a gift that John Caius bestowed upon Gonville & Caius College in the late sixteenth century. Interestingly, this icon, [symbol of the college Master’s office](http://www.cai.cam.ac.uk/college/past/ingram/historyjcaius.php), was capped with _four_ serpents, not two or one. And while I cannot claim that it actually supports my contention, I will note that as the symbol of the college’s Master, it may have actually had a different meaning than simply an association with medicine. (Or perhaps, this wand held at this college became the source for the belief that the caduceus was actually medically related.) ---
**Author:** ![curwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/14 "2002-10-22T06:47:51Z")
The connection between the story of the copper serpent of Moses in Numbers and the Greek caduceus is interesting. From this site ( [http://www.jewishsf.com/bk000714/torah.shtml](http://www.jewishsf.com/bk000714/torah.shtml) ) > [@](#): > > When they encounter an infestation of poisonous snakes, our ancestors respond by apologizing for their criticism. God tells Moses how to treat the snakebites: “Build a fiery object, put it on a pole, and anyone bitten who sees it will live.” So Moses builds a copper serpent, and it works (Numbers 21:8-9). > > The rabbis of the Mishnah find this story enigmatic. In general, we avoid making metal images of animals (see Exodus 20:4), especially if someone might worship them. Fortunately, looking at a metal snake does not seem much like worship. On the other hand, looking at a copper image of a snake does not seem like a rational treatment for snakebite, either. > > By some uncanny coincidence, the caduceus, a figure of snakes entwined around a pole (derived from Greek and Roman mythology) symbolizes the healing professions even to this day. Which still does not make the snake on the pole fit the guidelines of proper therapy. What is the source of this “uncanny coincidence”? This site seems to suggest that the Greeks took it from the Middle East cultures: [http://www.angelfire.com/la2/bahumuth/Sumerians.doc](http://www.angelfire.com/la2/bahumuth/Sumerians.doc) > [@](#): > > ``` > Asherah’s symbol of fertility was the upright pole, representing the Tree of Life. Two of the more appreciated kings of Judah in the 700s B.C., Chizki-Yahu (Hezekiah) and Yoshi-Yahu (Josiah), went on campaigns to rid the land of all of these “Asherah poles” (2 Kings 18:4, 23:15). However, the poles lived on in Greek art and later became the symbol of Hermes. Snakes, representing the male anatomy, were depicted mating while wrapped around the tree. Today the Asherah pole is illustrated in the caduceus on every ambulance and hospital in the western world. > > The Asherah pole’s depiction is generally believed to have come form the ancient Mesopotamian treatment for Draconculiasis (“Little Dragon” of Medina), a parasitic guinea worm that comes from drinking water contaminated with cyclops crustaceans. These creatures carry the larva of the guinea worm, which once born, kills the cyclops and burrows into the intestinal wall. The male worms die shortly after mating in the abdominal cavity. The females, which can grow to be a meter long, go on a long journey to the foot, where they secrete a substance that causes inflammation so that when scratched and doused with water, the worm can spit it’s larvae into a new water source. The way to treat is it to wrap it around a stick daily so that it will be tight enough to slowly pull out. 11 > > Many people believe Draconculiasis were the “fiery serpents” that the Hebrews were afflicted with during the exodus from Egypt: > > ``` > > They traveled from Mount Hor by the way to the Sea of Reeds, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. The people spoke against Elohim, and against Moshe [Moses], “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread, and there is no water; and our soul loathes this light bread. Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Yisra-El [Israel] died. The people came to Moshe, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Yahweh, and against you; pray to Yahweh, that he take away the serpents from us. Moshe prayed for the people. Yahweh said to Moshe, Make you a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole: and it shall happen, that everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. Moshe made a serpent of brass, and set it on a pole: and it happened, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked to the serpent of brass, he lived. -Numbers 21:4-8 > The caduceus remained a religious artifact for about 570 years, and then: > Now it happened in the third year of Hoshea, son of Elah, king of Yisra-El, that Chizki-Yahu [Hezekiah], the son of Achaz, king of Yehudah [Judah], began to reign. He was 25 years old when he began to reign; and he reigned 29 years in Yerushalayim [Jerusalem]: and his mother’s name was Avi the daughter of Zekhar-Yah [Zechariah]. He did that which was right in the eyes of Yahweh, according to all that David his father had done. He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah: and he broke in pieces the brazen serpent that Moshe had made; for to those days the children of Yisra-El did burn incense to it; and he called it Nechushtan. -2 Kings 18:1-4 > Necushtan sounds like the Hebrew for bronze, snake and unclean thing. Necushtan sounds like the Hebrew for ‘bronze‘, ‘snake’ and ‘unclean thing ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/15 "2002-10-22T07:15:41Z")
tomndebb - the removal of the guinea worm, by winding around it around a stick, was mentioned in my parasitology class (college-level), in the textbook (with accompanying photos), and is document at many websites easily found through a Google search (“guinea worm removal”). [example](http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/topic100586890#5) [another example](http://www.nlc.net.au/~nedved/Parasites/Guineaworm.html#treatment) and, last but not least: [Cecil Adams on the subject](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010223.html) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-symbol-of-snakes-wrapped-around-a-pole-that-we-associate-with-medicine/133147/16 "2002-10-22T11:29:40Z")
OK. I’ll accept that. (I do notice that breakage is seen as a problem. 🙂 ) I still suspect that caduceus as a medical symbol is a rather late confusion of two similar symbols rather than an original meaning.