# "That", "That That", "That This" And The Other **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546 "2006-10-31T03:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/1 "2006-10-31T03:52:38Z")
. . . (1) I’ve noticed recently _that_ my use of the word “that” is suspect. I offer a few examples herunder. (2) I’ve heard _that_ this restaurant serves Devils-on-Horseback to die for. (3) I don’t know _that_ that wine has been properly chilled. (4) Has anyone ever told you _that_ your eyes are limpid pools of desire? (5) Could it be _that_ I’m falling in love? (6) I think _that_ this coffee is delicious. (7) It seems _that_ this bra is available at a discount from Marks & Spencer. (8) I’m sorry _that_ that comment made you incandescent with rage. (9) It would appear _that_ this is goodbye then. . . . Comments. In my opinion: (a) I’ve never liked the _that that_ combination but example (3) reads better with two _that_s. Example (8) reads better without the second _that_. (b) Example (1) needs the _that_. © Example (5) reads better without the _that_. (d) All other given examples read OK with or without the _that_. . . . Irrespective of my opinions, what are the rules of grammar for the above examples? Items (2), (4), (6), (7) and (9) seem to have the same type of sentence construction demanding the same answer but, again, I could be wrong. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/2 "2006-10-31T04:25:49Z")
First, note that in the cases where two copies of the word “that” occur next to each other in a sentence, they have two different meanings. Indeed, they are two different parts of speech. There is the “that” that is parallel to “this,” either as a modifier or as a noun-like word. So there is: That is a cat. That animal is a cat. which is parallel to: This is a cat. This animal is a cat. In both cases, this is usually thought of as a pronoun. Then there’s the “that” which introduces a clause: I know that the cat is in the room. This is usually thought of as a conjunction. So there is no problem with having two copies of “that” in a row if one is introducing a clause and the other is the first word in the clause (either as a modifier or in a noun-like role). Sometimes one can drop the “that” which introduces a clause without changing the meaning of a sentence and sometimes one can’t. For instance, there’s a subtle difference between these two sentences. I believe that there’s a God. I believe there’s a God. There’s an entire book called _That’s That_ by Dwight Bolinger on the various meanings of the word “that.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/3 "2006-10-31T04:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] . . . (1) I’ve noticed recently _that_ my use of the word “that” is suspect. I offer a few examples herunder. (2) I’ve heard _that_ this restaurant serves Devils-on-Horseback to die for. [/quote] “This restaurant serves Devils on Horseback to die for” is an independent clause. It could stand on its own as a sentence. ‘That’ is serving as a conjunction between the two clauses. That can also serve as an adverb, an adjective, and a pronoun. When you say “I’ve heard that” by itself, that is a pronoun. When you say “I’ve heard that that wine is good,” the second ‘that’ is an adjective. Oftentimes using that as a conjunction (the first that of the that that pair) can be unnecessary if you’re following properly. In French, this is sin. In English it remains purely for clarity. Your opinions on where it is necessary is purely aesthetic, as they are generally the same example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/4 "2006-10-31T04:28:22Z")
Christ. Excuse my grammar. Your opinions _are_ purely aesthetic. I hope I used enough quotes, and that that (teehee) wasn’t too confusing. ---
**Author:** ![bcullman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bcullman/32/8207_2.png) [@bcullman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bcullman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/5 "2006-10-31T07:40:29Z")
the “that that” has always bothered me. Whats weird is that every sentence i have everf constucted with the “that that” syntax could be written with just one “that” Does anyone have an example where the phrasing “that that” is nessasary, and without it the meaning of the sentence changes? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/6 "2006-10-31T11:55:52Z")
Once again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with two copies of “that” in a row. Here’s an example of a subtle difference between one and two copies of “that” in a sentence: You’re standing at a bus stop with a friend. You see a bus coming and say, “I believe that is our bus.” Suppose on the other hand, you’re standing between two bus stops. There is a bus waiting at each stop. Your friend asks, “Which one is our bus?” You look at them and think about it and then either say (pointing to the nearer one), “I believe that this is our bus,” or (pointing to the farther one), “I believe that that is our bus.” Leaving out the “that” as a conjunction makes the sentence sound more like an immediate reaction rather than like a considered opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/7 "2006-10-31T12:26:00Z")
I think that in examples (2), (4), (6), (7) and (9) the presence of _that_ also lends an air of considered opinion to the statement. It seems more formal. What is your view on this? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/8 "2006-10-31T12:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=bcullman] the “that that” has always bothered me. Whats weird is that every sentence i have everf constucted with the “that that” syntax could be written with just one “that” Does anyone have an example where the phrasing “that that” is nessasary, and without it the meaning of the sentence changes? [/QUOTE] Sure, here you go: You’re at a restaurant and overhear the sommelier at the next table recommend a particular wine. You say to your companion: “I’ve heard that that wine is delightful.” Remove one “that” and you have, “I’ve heard that wine is delightful.” Now you’re talking about wine in general. Saying “I’ve heard that this wine is delightful,” would confuse your companion into thinking that you’re talking about the wine that **you’re** drinking rather than the one the sommelier was discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/9 "2006-10-31T13:28:45Z")
[QUOTE=bcullman] Does anyone have an example where the phrasing “that that” is nessasary, and without it the meaning of the sentence changes? [/QUOTE] _That that is, is. That that is not, is not._ I think (that) this example was actually an excercise in correct use of commas, but also illustrates a necessary ‘double that’. **Ferret Herder** ’s example would be great for teaching the different pronunciations of ‘that’. When you say that the specific wine that the waiter’s holding is a good wine, you use the long ‘a’, when you make the general statement about wines, you use the short ‘a’. Because of the different pronunciations, you could drop the conjunction in speech, even though it’s necessary in writing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/10 "2006-10-31T13:29:34Z")
True, but the overall intonation or prosody of the sentence would be different. I’ve heard that wine is delightful, the general statement, would have no accent on the ‘that.’ If you say, “I’ve heard THAT wine,” that particular wine you’re drinking, “is delightful,” your voice goes up on ‘that.’ Sometimes people have trouble distinguishing this, however. ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/11 "2006-10-31T13:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=The Octagon] True, but the overall intonation or prosody of the sentence would be different. I’ve heard that wine is delightful, the general statement, would have no accent on the ‘that.’ If you say, “I’ve heard THAT wine,” that particular wine you’re drinking, “is delightful,” your voice goes up on ‘that.’ Sometimes people have trouble distinguishing this, however. [/QUOTE] Yes, non-native speakers often seem to have a hard time with that difference - I generally use the ‘double that’ with them. I guess that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/12 "2006-10-31T18:38:39Z")
I think it may be the increasing? trend of adding unnecessary words: The reason I want to go is, is because I love their fried dough. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/13 "2006-11-01T18:33:33Z")
I try to avoid dropping in a “that” if it doesn’t add to the clarity or the rhythm. In “I think I shall never see/ A poem lovely as a tree,” it doesn’t scan without “that.” In, “I know that the author didn’t mean it in a nasty way,” without “that” you have an instant where I seem to be saying the author is an old friend. So the “that” adds clarity. I have an awful feeling that I haven’t added any clarity at all. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/14 "2006-11-02T00:41:56Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] You’re standing at a bus stop with a friend. You see a bus coming and say, “I believe that is our bus.” [/QUOTE] I’m going to modify your example for the purpose of illustration: “I believe that is our bus driver.” You may substitute the pronoun _he_ — “I believe _he_ is our bus driver” — or a proper noun — “I believe _Bob_ is our bus driver.” _That_ takes on a noun/pronoun role. You may also substitute a common noun, but it needs an article: “I believe _a cat_ is our bus driver.” However, since _that_ is also a definite article, you can also substitute _that_ for _a_: “I believe _that_ cat is our bus driver.” Here _that_ takes the role of a specifier, an article more specific than “a cat,” meaning _not just any old cat in the area, but the one over there._ The trouble is, _that_ is also a contextual chameleon: you could say, “A cat is our bus driver? I don’t believe _that._” Now _that_ encompasses the entire first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DfrntBreign](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@DfrntBreign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DfrntBreign)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/15 "2006-11-06T19:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=Themenin] _That that is, is. That that is not, is not._ \ [/QUOTE] I believe that _that_ “that that” is the best example so far. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/16 "2006-11-06T19:51:31Z")
[QUOTE=DfrntBreign] I believe that _that_ “that that” is the best example so far. 😃 [/QUOTE] There’s a simpler example. _Is that that then?_ ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-that-that-that-this-and-the-other/378546/17 "2006-11-07T23:26:01Z")
In my experience, American English speakers perfer to not use ‘that’ as much as British English speakers.