I would say that once you have a heartbeat…you have a life. IMHO, of course.
For the record, I’m pro-choice.
Cap’n: I hadn’t considered kamikazee eggs, but it doesn’t change my POV.
Life has still begun.
People can justify ANY decision. Like I said, any woman should have the right to abort her child. The public should not pay for it and the woman should know and accept that it IS homicide regardless of self-defense or rape-spawn, or whatever justification.
Hell is Other People.
For me, the problem is what is meant by “kill” and “alive” and so, as I generally do when I’m having trouble defining things, I go to the dictionary, where I find . . .
“Kill: To deprive of life.” Alrighty, that leads us directly to “alive” . . .
“Alive: Having life; not dead.”
Hmmm. That was a big help. Personally, I have always defined “alive” in terms of fetal development as being the point at which the fetus can survive outside of the womb without extraordinary medical intervention. I mean, the question posed is a very difficult one: At what point does the embryo or fetus stop being a part of its mother and start being an “other”? I personally think it’s when it doesn’t need its mother (meaning, it’s biological mother) in order to survive. If the fetus cannot survive outside the womb, I’m not sure it’s appropriate to speak of “killing” it, because I’m not sure it’s anything but a part of its mother. If I cut off my hand, have I killed it?
Here’s an interesting factoid:
Less that 1% of all abortions in the US are done because of rape or incest.
I remember when I was younger, and I heard all these people debating “the abortion issue” and I had no idea what it meant. So I asked someone. And they told me. And I remember thinking that I must not have heard them right, because it sounded like the most immoral and dispicable act that I could think of. Obviously, my views have softened somewhat (no flames, please), but I am still staunchly pro-life. I think that people downplay or disregard the adoption option (sounds like Dr. Suess at a Christian Coalition convention–hey, that sounds like Dr. Suess too. Maybe I am Dr. Suess). When presented with the adoption alternative, many pro-choicers assert that the woman shouldn’t have to carry the baby for nine months if she doesn’t want to. Pardon my French, but bullshit. It’s called taking responsibility for your actions. You made choices, here are the consequences. If it’s inconvenient for you, tough bloody luck. We’re talking about human lives here, and whether they “exist” now or will “exist” in the near future, everybody deserves at least a shot at life.
Here’s a question for you pro-choicers. If nobody has the power to infringe on a woman’s right to choose abortion, does anyone have the power to infringe on my right to shoot deer? Not that I hunt or ever would, but I just like to bust on the liberals.
The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.
Rousseau, I’ll answer that question.
No. No one has the right to stop you from shooting deer, as long as you do it within the time frame alloted to you, and you do it legally and safely.
Yes, I am pro-choice. I am pro-choice across the board. If you don’t like hunting, don’t do it. If you don’t like guns, don’t own one. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one. Pro-choice supporters do not force people to abort pregnancies. We simply want to keep abortion a safe, legal option, and hope that one day, the world will change enough that abortion will be an option that no one will ever need.
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Is this Mundane or Pointless?? Arguing about such a personal decision as abortion? Pointless I guess.
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Why don’t you tell us the answer you are looking for? Or you can just keep disagreeing with the answers given if you prefer to be difficult?
-Frankie
Ok, Sake, one question:
If whomever, after weighing all the options and feeling that she needs to have the abortion, but she can’t afford it, who, exactly, should pay for the abortion?
I’m not looking for any specific answer, and if I appear difficult or argumentative, I apologize, I was wrong. What I was looking for was truthful answers. So, thank you.
Speaking as a prolifer, I know from my experience that good crisis pregnancy centers – they’re not all good, sadly – do all they can to make what is often a desperately difficult situation tolerable.
Unwanted pregnancies are almost never rape or incest; it’s frequently some combination of love, youth, impulsiveness, ignorance and really rotten luck. Sometimes everything the centers can do is not enough, and sometimes even a woman or girl who desperately wants to have a child goes through with an abortion; I’ve seen that happen myself. Young women are often very ashamed to be pregnant and unmarried, even in this day and age, and the temptation to just make it all go away is often, understandably, overwhelming.
Prolifers view each abortion as a disaster and a tragedy, as, I think, do most prochoice folk. We’re often not that far apart.
And, yes, some women do use abortion as ordinary birth control, though it is rare. I know such a woman. Eleven abortions, and she’s not forty yet.
Catrandom
pl said it’s a baby after a certain level of brain activity is recorded,or something Like that. Well. Some folks on the sdmb aren’t babies yet ;)(not you,pl). I am a christian.But I am not “against” abortion. It would be nice if no one got pregnant when they didn’t want to,but…I had one 5 years ago,and I’m glad I had the right.
Sterling:
Clearly I am saying that if she can not afford an abortion (couple hundred dollars), she should entertain three options:
- Perform the dangerous act herself
- Have a willing acquaintance perform it (good luck)
- Have the child
That’s a HUGE health risk. What kind of a person is that? She should have been sterilized a decade or two ago!
Hell is Other People.
Nobody’s ever been able to give me a good argument for why this is, or should be, the case.
This was a joke, right? If so, it’s not very funny. If not, I can’t even begin to tell you how utterly despicable that line of thinking is. Abortion is only okay if you’ve got enough money to get one? Otherwise, have the kid, even though you can’t float $200? If a woman can’t scrape up that amount of money for an abortion, how is she ever going to get a decent amount of prenatal care? How will she be able to afford to raise the child? Foster homes are full of children like this. So are prisons, I’d imagine.
If the law forces women to bear children regardless of the woman’s decision, it should then be equally hard on the other part of the equation. Severe penalties for men who refuse to support the child. With better DNA testing, this should become easier. Wanna bet the law stays as it is?
I couldn’t care less.
My point is “she” should not have the right to have someone else bail her out from her irresponsible unwanted pregnancy. This is not no joke. It is responsibility.
Are you dead broke - have no job - contemplating suicide - smoking - etc? Then don’t you dare have sex with anyone. Not until you’re mature enough to deal with it.
Want to sleep around and can’t be bothered with kids? Then get yourself sterilized ASAP!
I’ll even do it for free.
Hell is Other People.
I honestly never understood how abortion became such a big political issue. “Should I vote for this person… hmm, let’s ask how he/she feels about getting rid of babies.”
That said, I think the people who started this debate were ones with huge stakes in the bumper sticker market.
“It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument” - William McAdoo
Sake, it’s nice to see that you really care.
Maybe Hallmark should print a card for that.
“I don’t give a damn about your life. You should live to my morals! Here, have a coathanger.”
<hr>
On The Other Hand
Of course, isn’t it a perverse argument to say, "You ain’t mature, Your punishment is to be responsible for another life, even though you can’t take care of your own.
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
—Mark Twain
No, it’s more like saying, “You ain’t mature, Your punishment is to learn quickly to be responsible for another life, even though you can’t take care of your own. Because if we bail you out of this one, we’ll have to bail you out of the next one, and the next one, and the one after that. By the time you die we will have helped you live a carefree, irresponsible, ignorant, immoral life and killed a dozen or more human lifeforms just to give you that freedom you so enjoyed.”
Hell is Other People.
This is a long one…
I’m pro-reality on this subject. I can sit on the fence for hours while the Pro-lifers and the Pro-choice people scratch each others eyes out. It’s great fun. Eventually they tire and need to catch their breath and look to me on my fence and ask me “What do I think.”
We are at the highest level of medical knowledge with more forms of preventing pregnancies available to the mainstream public than ever before in the history of womankind. It blows my mind that people accidently become pregnant,I know it happens and not everyone is "If it’s the third wednesday of the month then I’ll be getting my period between 1pm - 230pm’ like me, but I digress.
The sex education in this country is pitiful and the less we talk about it the more intriguing it is for kids and young adults.We are more concerned about guns and bombs in school while the kids are humping like rabbits at rave parties.
I am a firm beleiver that it is the womans responsibilty for birth control. Any parent that does not teach their daughter the details of sex and what preventitive measures are out there ( or have a gyno do the talk) because they don’t want their Little Princess to get the urge to try it because they talked about it, are just asking for a grandchild or abortion/adoption discussion sooner than later. Your daughter can handle a hell of alot more than you realize.
The women who use abortion repeatedly as a method of birth control should be sterlized.They are nothing more than animals in my mind.
This is the area that just floors me. The pro-lifers who think all fetuses deserve to live even though diagnostic testing proves that the fetus is deformed ( and not something minor like a cleft palate or missing hand) but the totally scary and nasty things that keep a pregnant woman awake at night until the ultrasound at about 20 weeks when they can see the heart/head/spine/legs/organs are doing AOK.
If the tests are conclusive the woman should terminate because no one else will adopt a deformed child and she really won’t get any support.
Bear with me while I go off on a rant…
Until you live with someone with a severe disability you will never no just how hard it is. My brothers all have MD. My father in law is paralyzed from the chest down from an accident.I know disabilities from the genetic standpoint and the accident standpoint. I’ve had experience with the Mentally Retarded and have a very distant distant cousin who’s retarded. I’ve got experience up the wazoo in this department.Here’s a small sample of what a woman (the primary care giver) goes through with a severely disabled child:
The round the clock care: 24/7. diapers for life kinda stuff. medicines, IV’s, massages to keep the muscles loose. You will live in sweats.
The lack of a social life. (Lack of a social life outside of doctors, nurses, therapists and maybe support groups.Your own friends will gradually stop coming by because they are uncomfortable and, well, they pity you.)
The constant constant constant running to doctor’s appointments & therapy. You better live near a hospital and doctors offices or plan to move, because you will do alot of driving.
This will take up half of your waking hours: The arguing with your insurance over things like a new wheel chair when Jr. outgrows the childs one he has. Handicap ramps that for whatever reason are always put on the front door that just say " Hello, burglars! Yoo Hoo! Gimps living here, come steal something". You can try to get a handicap equip van (Which you will never get unless you severe your own legs with a rusty hack saw in front of the insurance assholes) when JR becomes too heavy to transfer on his own and is incapable of assisting. You will also argue until you are blue in the face over billing issues and daily supplies that are desperately needed that they want to cut off as frivolous.
The common colds that send Jr. to the hospital to ICU for weeks because his system cannot handle stuff like that. Oh, I could go on.
And I shall.
What about schooling? Private schools specialing in hard cases will cost you your retirement. Public schools might do as well, but how can you be sure. Is this child employable? If he is, familiarize yourself with the disabilities laws and find help through a support group for job placement.
If he is not capable of a job, who is going to take care of Jr. if something happens to you? Do you or your spouse have extra life insurance to cover the care for JR when the primary person drops dead? If not,I hate to say, but you are never going to find anyone to do the things mommy did for free or even $6 an hour without benefits and vacation time and that you’re fucked.
Where does Jr. go when he out lives mommy and daddy? If there are siblings, I don’t think they want the responsibility of him once they have a family of their own. You better check out a group home. Same thing goes if Jr’s health declines so much that it is a physical and emotional burden to take care of him. Find the best home you can afford and let them do their job and you can take a break.
Then you can look in the mirror and wonder who is that old woman with thirty pounds on her, few friends, and no real job skills that are marketable anymore and wonder was it all worth it.
Oh, before I forget, Bobbie McCoy ( It’s spelled differently, but sounds like that)you know her as the mother of the septulets. I was talking to a high risk pregnancy ultra sound technician (when I was in for my ultrasound) and she said that that highly publicized pregnancy probably did more damage for women carrying multiples where not all may survive unless a ( I forget the term right now) selective in-utero abortion is done on a smaller fetus. Bobbie McCoy was very lucky to have seven reasonably healhty babies, but in the long term no one knows the level of disability (primarily learning, but other health concerns can/will arise too) will have. This technician scanned a woman who was carrying 4 and the tech and two different doc’s and a few other medical folks involved, highly recommended the selective abortion because of whatever they saw in their testing. The mother refused, citing Bobbie Mccoy’s 7.She didn’t even cite for relgious reasons either, the tech said. That mother gave birth to four, one died within moments and the other three have severe physical problems that will more than likely last a life time because of a result of a
( pardon the oversimplification)too crowded womb. No woman wanting a family EVER dreams of THAT.
And to this, I say with all sincerity to the pro-lifers, walk in these mothers mocassins or shut the hell up.
To answer the OP’s question: up to 12 weeks for the standard " I made a mistake and got pregnant by that prick" abortion. For medical cases, when discovered ( Usually about 20 weeks,) and thorough testing is done. Then therapy/counseling and genetic counseling if the couple want to try again.
Crap, this is a ramble. I’m sorry.
Sake Samurai:
Ah, so we have an actual difference of opinions regarding how revenues are to be spent. I can live with that.
I want an absolute guarantee of the availability of abortion medical procedures in any hospital deemed eligible to receive any government funding, including eligibility for Medicare and Medicaid reimbursal. On the other hand, if people of your political persuasion dominate budget proceedings and electoral results over a period of years, I am indeed prepared, if necessary, to perform them myself.
In the mean time: how many of your tax dollars are you willing to see spent on research into reliable, convenient, and safe means of establishing reproductive control, so that fertility is a choice, not a factor only dimly under folks’ control? How many of your tax dollars are you willing to see voted for reproductive education and birth control as part of standard schooling and health care?
Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post
To answer the OP, it becomes a baby as opposed to a fetus when the woman decides that she is going to carry it to term.
To answer the second question, because the Supreme Court said that women have that choice.
And, for that reason, over a million choices are performed each year.