# That writer/producer/director/artist/musician must HATE women! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957 "2009-06-16T16:46:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/21 "2009-06-16T18:13:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Now you may think that it’s impossible for a woman to rape a man, Er, why _would_ you think that? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/22 "2009-06-16T18:37:43Z")
Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley. Whenever some sad sack academic tries to paint **Frankenstein** as a proto-feminist work, I have to point out: –The writer identification character is Victor, not Elizabeth –There are no women front and center in the narrative (Elizabeth is a plot device and poor Safie is barely even that!) –Her radical social writings featured nothing that Phyllis Schlafly would have minded ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/23 "2009-06-16T19:43:30Z")
I can’t imagine _anybody_ saying that **Frankenstein** is a proto-feminist work. Not if they’ve read the book, at least. I mean, not even mentioning what you just said, there’s also the fact that Victor is repelled by Elizabeth, Victor doesn’t even like any women except for his sainted mother, and oh yeah, the whole book is about the _desire to remove women_ from the act of pro-creation! Victor is so disgusted by women that he dedicated his life to searching for a way to create a being that wouldn’t involve putting his peepee in Elizabeth’s hooha. Unless Shelley meant all that stuff ironically, but somehow, I doubt it. And yeah, things didn’t turn out _well_ for Victor, but hell, things didn’t turn out well for anybody in that book. Except maybe the Captain. Who spoke of how much he loved and admired Victor, of how he had searched his whole life for a partner like Victor, of how pleasing Victor was to the eye. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/24 "2009-06-16T19:48:47Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Can’t you make the same argument in reverse? Garp cheats on Jenny, Roberta makes the deliberate choice not to be a man, and the ideal man is Garp’s father, brain-damaged and with a constant erection. Not atl all. For instance, Jenny’s cheating literally castrates the man involved. So that adds “women as castrator” to the mix. Roberta does decide not to be a man, but she is the only sympathetic women, leaving the subtext that the only good women are those that were men. As for Garp’s father – the idea that Jenny thinks he’s the ideal man is pure hatred for the male sex on her part, implying women believe men are only good for stud service. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/25 "2009-06-16T19:54:47Z")
Spike Lee seems to have a real madonna/whore thing going on. It’s most obviously on display in He Got Game. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/26 "2009-06-16T20:17:03Z")
Oh, John Jakes, he of the \*Kent Family Chronicles \*and the _North and South Trilogy_. In the KFC, every single major female character is raped. It might be date rape, it might be gang rape, it might be kidnapping and rape, but Every Single One is raped. And in North and South, Brett is clearly the Good Girl while Ashton is the Slut. No middle ground there. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/27 "2009-06-16T20:25:09Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Oh how could I forget John Mayer? When I first heard Daughters I thought it was a nice song about respecting women but after repeated listenings, it dawned on me that Mayer thinks women are fragile, retarded beings whose sole purpose is to make men happy as either wives or mothers. > > Treat women right because one might be my girlfriend one day! I think you had the right idea originally and overthunk it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/28 "2009-06-16T20:25:20Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not atl all. For instance, Jenny’s cheating literally castrates the man involved. So that adds “women as castrator” to the mix. Roberta does decide not to be a man, but she is the only sympathetic women, leaving the subtext that the only good women are those that were men. It’s been years since I read it, but what sympathetic men are there? Robert, presumably, but that leaves the subtext that any good man wants to be a woman. > [@](#): > > As for Garp’s father – the idea that Jenny thinks he’s the ideal man is pure hatred for the male sex on her part, implying women believe men are only good for stud service. There’s plenty of hate to go around. Your argument seems to be that when a woman is hated, it’s the author’s voice; but when a man is hated, it’s only because of a vile woman doing the hating. I just don’t see it as that cut and dried, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/29 "2009-06-16T20:53:31Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not atl all. For instance, Jenny’s cheating literally castrates the man involved. So that adds “women as castrator” to the mix. . . You can’t hang that all on Jenny. It’s been awhile, but wasn’t she sitting in the car to break up with the guy? She wasn’t there for sex and only agreed to it grudgingly to get him out of there. And it definitely wouldn’t have upgraded to a castration if Garp hadn’t slammed into the back of the car. She was giving the guy a good-bye blow job. Her husband was the one who turned it into a tragedy. And the break-up guy’s dis-memberment wasn’t even the tragedy. He becomes largely peripheral to the plot at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/30 "2009-06-16T21:06:40Z")
About Shelley, I always understood that it wasn’t that _Frankenstein_ was a proto-feminist work, but that Shelley was a proto-feminist. Although she might not ping our modern radar as an advocate for women’s issues, she was pretty open about being able to read and write. Piers Anthony seems to get called out for being misogynist. I haven’t read much of his work since like the third Xanth book, so I have no opinion on his overall views, but I do recall a story of his in Ellison’s _Dangerous Visions_ collection that could certainly single-handedly put him in a category appropriate for this thread. Anyone particularly sensitive to the issue would find the story easily more obviously objectionable than _A Boy and His Dog_, but the story in itself is more of an exploration of an adolescent fantasy that proves to be an adolescent nightmare when it is realized. It skewers the immature male perspective, rather than making a comment about women. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/31 "2009-06-16T21:36:57Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I never come away from a Bay movie thinking “Boy, he must really fear and loathe women!”. I come away thinking “Boy, he sure likes to blow things up and looking at titties!” Two distinctly different reactions. Come to think about it, I did think that the Megan Fox character in the first Transformers movie was written in a very sexist way: it’s okay for Shia Lawhatever to like a girl he barely knows because she’s hot, but when she admits to dating guys just because of their bodies, the writer intended us to think her shallow. Also, when he finds out that megan had had troubles with the law, he’s all paternalistic and dissapointed at her, and she actually acts all ashamed and submissive, and at no point that sort of behaviour is seen as weird by the writers. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/32 "2009-06-16T21:46:23Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Oh, John Jakes, he of the \*Kent Family Chronicles \*and the _North and South Trilogy_. In the KFC, every single major female character is raped. It might be date rape, it might be gang rape, it might be kidnapping and rape, but Every Single One is raped. You forgot: Killed during rape attempt or suicides to avoid rape. John Jakes books deserve to be pulped. I cannot imagine how he got popular. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/33 "2009-06-16T22:06:02Z")
A lot has been made of Alfred Hitchcock’s apparent issues with women. I’m not familiar enough with him to really say, but Psycho (which, granted, owes at least as much to Robert Bloch (possible) and Ed Geins’ (very, very real) issues with women as Hitchcock’s) and Vertigo certainly don’t dissuade me from that POV. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/34 "2009-06-16T22:24:15Z")
I’ve never read anything else by Larry Niven, but based solely on _Ringworld_ I get the idea that he thinks we’re a bunch of decorative ninnies. Or rabbit’s feet. Or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/35 "2009-06-16T22:29:31Z")
No mention of Frank Miller yet? Sort-of surprised, really. Madonna-whore thing in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/36 "2009-06-16T22:43:59Z")
[QUOTE=RikWriter] The first name that popped into my head was "Leo Frankowski [/QUOTE] He does give that impression. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Now you may think that it’s impossible for a woman to rape a man, but Mr. Newcomb doesn’t sweat little details like that. It’s quite possible, and has happened. If the man can’t get an erection on his own, strangulation will force one. > [@koeeoaddi](#): > > I’ve never read anything else by Larry Niven, but based solely on _Ringworld_ I get the idea that he thinks we’re a bunch of decorative ninnies. Or rabbit’s feet. Or whatever. No, that was just Teela Brown, not his women in general. She was _ **supposed** _ to be shallow and immature, due to her psychic luck protecting her for her whole life. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/37 "2009-06-16T22:54:56Z")
Nobody’s mentioned **Sam Peckinpah** yet? In his movies the female characters usually end up getting raped by the bad guy or beaten up by the good guy, or both, while somehow deserving and/or enjoying one or both. See **Straw Dogs** , **The Getaway** , **Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia** , etc. The strange thing is I really like all of those movies. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/38 "2009-06-16T23:19:33Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#): > > About Shelley, I always understood that it wasn’t that _Frankenstein_ was a proto-feminist work, but that Shelley was a proto-feminist. Although she might not ping our modern radar as an advocate for women’s issues, she was pretty open about being able to read and write. > . Wasn’t it [her mother](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_wollstonecraft) who was the actual feminist? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/39 "2009-06-16T23:44:38Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Oh how could I forget John Mayer? When I first heard Daughters I thought it was a nice song about respecting women but after repeated listenings, it dawned on me that Mayer thinks women are fragile, retarded beings whose sole purpose is to make men happy as either wives or mothers. > > Treat women right because one might be my girlfriend one day! I have always hated that song for basically the same reasons. I think of it as the “Parents, don’t fuck up your daughters before I get to fuck them!” song. I’m sure Mayer \*thought \*he was writing a nice song about respecting women, but the only reasons he can think of for treating daughters well is so that they’ll grow up to be good lovers and mothers. The song’s narrator is only thinking about the proper rearing of female children because he’s decided that his problems with his girlfriend are all her father’s fault and have “nothing to do with me”. There’s nothing at all in the song about treating daughters well for their own sake, it’s just so other guys won’t get stuck with messed up girlfriends. As the daughter of a single mother myself, it also ticks me off that the song suggests that any girl without a loving father at home is pretty much doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957/40 "2009-06-16T23:52:56Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I have always hated that song for basically the same reasons. I think of it as the “Parents, don’t fuck up your daughters before I get to fuck them!” song. I’m sure Mayer \*thought \*he was writing a nice song about respecting women, but the only reasons he can think of for treating daughters well is so that they’ll grow up to be good lovers and mothers. The song’s narrator is only thinking about the proper rearing of female children because he’s decided that his problems with his girlfriend are all her father’s fault and have “nothing to do with me”. There’s nothing at all in the song about treating daughters well for their own sake, it’s just so other guys won’t get stuck with messed up girlfriends. > > As the daughter of a single mother myself, it also ticks me off that the song suggests that any girl without a loving father at home is pretty much doomed. I really hate the part when he says you can treat boys like shit because they can take it but girls, well, you’ll just fuck 'em up before I can get to them-- the tender, fragile things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/that-writer-producer-director-artist-musician-must-hate-women/499957.md?page=3)