# That's a nice VW plant you have there. Would be a shame if something happened to it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073 "2014-02-11T17:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/141 "2014-02-20T20:56:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > LOL > > What do you think unions do all the time? Extort! LOL. No. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/142 "2014-02-20T22:16:23Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But a union makes them more accessible. > > A Lexus is available to me, but that doesn’t mean I can afford it. > > I can’t go on. Have a good day. Assuming the Lexus is a benefit, should ten people be able to afford it (only those with unions) or should all 100 people be able to afford it (accessible by law)? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/143 "2014-02-20T22:44:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > LOL. No. What do you think a strike is, then? What do you think lead pipes are for? Intimidation! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/144 "2014-02-20T22:46:27Z")
Beating up on poor, defenseless Pinkerton agents? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/145 "2014-02-20T22:49:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Beating up on poor, defenseless Pinkerton agents? Yep. Not to mention throwing bombs into crowds and killing policemen. all in a day’s work for the typical unionist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket\_affair](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair) ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/146 "2014-02-20T22:55:51Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If the workers vote to unionize, that will be bad for Tennessee, according to Republicans. If they yank the tax incentives as a result, that will be even _worse_ for Tennessee – VW might leave the state, and no other automaker will want to open a plant there knowing that the tax incentives they’ve been promised come with an asterisk. > > The only way this works out for the good of Tennessee, according to Republican logic, is if their threat _works_ and the workers vote not to unionize. And that’s what makes this such a bullshit tactic. That’s what makes it a good and effective tactic. You can’t have something just because you want it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/147 "2014-02-20T23:25:20Z")
Some of our younger dopers might be forgiven for not remembering the Haymarket Affair. Being as it was in 1886, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/148 "2014-02-21T02:23:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, if the labor movement has achieved all of its substantial goals, and worker’s rights are an accepted and unchallenged part of our national fabric, what are the Republican’s so het up about? What moves them to such extraordinary machinations as to directly interfere? The tax incentives were extraordinary (they were not business as usual). It is perfectly ethical and sound for the lawmakers to want the incentives to bring some long-term benefit. Unions, as we all know, end up causing inefficiency and trouble. The companies won’t put up with that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/149 "2014-02-21T14:13:56Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Assuming the Lexus is a benefit, should ten people be able to afford it (only those with unions) or should all 100 people be able to afford it (accessible by law)? Well, sure, 100 people. But right now, it’s NOT law. If you want to make it law - and it’s debatable whether dictating all salaries and benefits into law is a good idea - you’ll have to lobby hard to do that. And the number one lobbyist for legal protections and benefits has been labor unions. So you still need one. Now we need to inject a dose of reality: 1. You’re never going to succeed in getting all these things enacted into law. 2. If you want to succeed, you can’t just declare that “the voters should do it.” That’s not how things happen. You have to organize, and work hard. In other words, form a group of workers - a labor union. Just the things we have in law today were fought for long and hard by unions, and they’re now fighting just to keep them from being repealed. 3. It’s probably a really bad idea for the government to do it anyway. In short, I think you’re just really naive about what is feasible. Or you’re just talking about utopian theories rather than reality, which is okay. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/150 "2014-02-21T14:15:07Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Unions, as we all know, end up causing inefficiency and trouble. The companies won’t put up with that. So why did the company in this case SUPPORT unionizing its workers? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/151 "2014-02-21T14:19:30Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yep. Not to mention throwing bombs into crowds and killing policemen. > > all in a day’s work for the typical unionist Do we really have to play this game? Do I really have to go get links about management hiring thugs to attack and often mass murder striking workers back then too? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/152 "2014-02-21T14:39:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why did the company in this case SUPPORT unionizing its workers? There may be some German law that says that foreign plants of a German firm must be unionized, to prevent companies from opening plants overseas and taking jobs away from (unionized) German workers. Just speculation. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/153 "2014-02-21T14:46:00Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > here may be some German law that says that foreign plants of a German firm must be unionized, to prevent companies from opening plants overseas and taking jobs away from (unionized) German workers. Hmm. So that means that since it failed, VW will have to shut down in Germany? Let us know when that happens. > [@](#): > > Just speculation. Don’t sell yourself short. You dodged the question by making up total bullshit, without educating yourself. I wasn’t surprised though. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/154 "2014-02-21T15:15:23Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Hmm. So that means that since it failed, VW will have to shut down in Germany? Let us know when that happens. > > Don’t sell yourself short. You dodged the question by making up total bullshit, without educating yourself. I wasn’t surprised though. It’s not bullshit. It may be a law or a provision in some agreement with the German union. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/155 "2014-02-21T15:30:49Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s not bullshit. It may be a law or a provision in some agreement with the German union. No, it’s bullshit until you actually go try to find out if there is such a law. Just making up stuff is not evidence, dude. It’s not an answer to the question. It’s a total dodge of the question. It’s incredibly lazy. Either go find out if there is such a law and post it, or find out that there isn’t such a law and try again, or stop wasting our time with this nonsense. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/156 "2014-02-21T15:50:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, sure, 100 people. > > But right now, it’s NOT law. > > If you want to make it law - and it’s debatable whether dictating all salaries and benefits into law is a good idea - you’ll have to lobby hard to do that. And the number one lobbyist for legal protections and benefits has been labor unions. So you still need one. > > Now we need to inject a dose of reality: > > 1. You’re never going to succeed in getting all these things enacted into law. > 2. If you want to succeed, you can’t just declare that “the voters should do it.” That’s not how things happen. You have to organize, and work hard. In other words, form a group of workers - a labor union. Just the things we have in law today were fought for long and hard by unions, and they’re now fighting just to keep them from being repealed. > 3. It’s probably a really bad idea for the government to do it anyway. Every single complaint you make against making something a part of the law you will face in getting unions to represent workers everywhere. It’s convenient to blame the Republican law makers, but in the end the workers said that they didn’t want it, at a rate that’s roughly equivalent to the US as a whole when it votes - 53% to 47%. The UAW says that it’s going to do good to those workers. I still ask: What additional benefits will they get? VW doesn’t leave it’s employees destitute, it seems to take good care of them, and even has benefits despite not having a union. They might get more wages when the union goes to negotiate a contract. Key word: Might. That’s the only additional benefit they \*\*may \*\*get out of the Union. They will also get a “works council” similar to the one in Germany…but, according to VW they may still be able to get a Works Council going without having to bother with a union. As for your bullet points: 1. You’re never going to succeed in installing a union into every workplace, nor are you going to always have unions that have their workers’ interest at heart. You are far more likely to get laws passed, first at a state level and then later at a federal level. 2. If you notice, the lobbying done by unions tends to focus on protecting their hold in states they are well established in. _They don’t lobby for laws requiring all employers to be fair to all workers._ They lobby hardest for laws that help the union itself. And, further, you are advocating for the additional entrenchment of professional lobbyists, which is something we should be moving away from. Unless you like places like the Heartland Institute buying your congresspersons. 3. Why? Why can’t the government combat the WalMarts and simply go “For every dollar you pay in wage, you pay X in benefits, with y going to retirement, z going to disability” and so forth ? It works out for Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment. Why can’t we expand that umbrella to make companies actually be responsible for the well being of their employees? Why shouldn’t ALL companies be required to provide the basics in benefits? If they want to offer more, fine, great. But WalMart shouldn’t be allowed to pay minimum wage and nothing else, forcing it’s workers to the benefits line because they don’t want to pay. And WalMart is the king at union busting, so I doubt you’ll get a union in there to help those workers out. So…what should happen? We should leave them and millions of others that don’t like what unions have done in the last 30 years out in the cold? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > In short, I think you’re just really naive about what is feasible. Or you’re just talking about utopian theories rather than reality, which is okay. For the record, you’re the one that thinks unions are somehow altruistic and never act in their own interest, outside of the interest of their membership. If they were simply interested in representing their worker base, they wouldn’t be lobbyists in the first place. They would explain some pending vote on law or official in neutral terms and ask their membership to vote based on the facts. The reality is much different. The union picks who would be “best” and then mails all of their unionized workers and lobbies those workers to also pick the union’s choice, usually with big, colorful cards that have slogans and sound bites and not a balanced view of multiple candidate for a particular position. They instead scratch the back of those politicians that scratch theirs. Sometimes, in the form of pork spending, this can benefit the workers. Other times, in the form of laws that entrench a union, it doesn’t: like in the case of negotiation. You can’t negotiate collectively with a company without a union. Why not? Because unions are the only ones that can negotiate? No other form of labor representation is okay? This only plays, of course, if you automatically assume that what’s best for a union is best for it’s workers. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/157 "2014-02-21T15:59:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, it’s bullshit until you actually go try to find out if there is such a law. > > Just making up stuff is not evidence, dude. It’s not an answer to the question. It’s a total dodge of the question. It’s incredibly lazy. > > Either go find out if there is such a law and post it, or find out that there isn’t such a law and try again, or stop wasting our time with this nonsense. Your choice. It would involve a whole bunch of legal research into German labor law. You paying? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/158 "2014-02-21T16:24:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It would involve a whole bunch of legal research into German labor law. You paying? No it wouldn’t. This has been in the news - an Internet search should easily turn it up if it exists. Even if it can’t, you think that means you can just make up crap? So far what you’ve offered to answer my question is, by your own admission, total speculation. What’s that worth? Nothing. VW SUPPORTED the union. You can’t explain why. You haven’t bothered to go check, by looking at it’s actual statements. You just made up something. I think it’s clear that you not only have nothing to offer, but you never will. I’m done with you. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/159 "2014-02-21T17:03:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No it wouldn’t. This has been in the news - an Internet search should easily turn it up if it exists. Even if it can’t, you think that means you can just make up crap? > > So far what you’ve offered to answer my question is, by your own admission, total speculation. What’s that worth? > > Nothing. > > VW SUPPORTED the union. You can’t explain why. You haven’t bothered to go check, by looking at it’s actual statements. You just made up something. > > I think it’s clear that you not only have nothing to offer, but you never will. > > I’m done with you. Bye. Now if you just think about it, you can probably come up with a few plausible reasons: 1. To placate their German unions, who obviously lose work when plants are opened overseas. If those plants are not substantially cheaper to run, they might not be built and work would kept in Germany. 2. Because the German law or state law requires it, to keep work and money in Germany if possible. 3. Because they think they might face it eventually, and they might get better terms from the union now than later. 4. Because US customers might look upon VW products more favorably if they are “Union Made in USA”. Just off the top of my head… ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073/160 "2014-02-21T17:20:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why did the company in this case SUPPORT unionizing its workers? I would think the obvious explanation is that the Volkswagen board is controlled by representatives of either the German labor unions or the local German government who both have an interest in making sure that Volkswagen’s overseas operations relatively expensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-a-nice-vw-plant-you-have-there-would-be-a-shame-if-something-happened-to-it/681073.md?page=9)