# That's IT, I GIVE UP!! \[pool repair job foiled by unions\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626 "2007-03-12T16:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/41 "2007-03-16T11:13:12Z")
I don’t understand why everyone hates unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/42 "2007-03-16T11:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I don’t understand why everyone hates unicorns. [/QUOTE] It’s because they’re publicly owned. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/43 "2007-03-16T12:50:02Z")
OK, let’s shed a little light here. It’s clear from previous threads that **ralph124c** lives in Newton, MA. It is an extremely wealthy and well-kept up suburb of Boston (I grew up in next-door Needham), and is nicknamed “The Garden City” with good reason, not that **ralph124c** appreciates the exquisite colonial charm of the place. From their [Demographic FAQ(pdf)](http://www.ci.newton.ma.us/Planning/Demogr/FAQ-Answers.pdf): > [@](#): > > 1. What is the population of Newton? > According to U.S Census 2000, the population of Newton was 83,829 in 2000, up from 82,585 in 1990 and 83,622 in 1980. > . > . > . > > 2. What is the median income of Newton residents? > The median income for a Newton family in 1999 was $105,289. The median household income was $86,052, and the per capita income was $45,708. Median earnings were $65,565 for full-time, year-round male workers and $46,885 for similar female workers. > > 3. What is the poverty rate in Newton? > In 2000, there were 546 families living below poverty level in Newton and 166 families with female householder and no husband present living below the poverty level. A total of 3,382 individuals or 4.3% of Newton population had incomes below the poverty line. There’s hardly a house of any size to be had for less than half a mil, a quick MLS search tells me. On their Park and Rec site, Newton boasts 3 functioning public swimming facilities (pics): [Gath Pool](http://www.ci.newton.ma.us/Parks/Aquatics/PhotoGalleries/GathSwimLessons/images/Lessons8_jpg_jpg.jpg) , [Crystal Lake](http://www.newtonconservators.org/photos/crystal/longview800.jpg) and the indoor facility at Newton North High School, a building that [ralph is pissed the city wants to renovate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404701). Is it because the pool will be closed during construction? What’s with you and pools? BTW, a season pass costs $45 for residents. **ralph124c** , you live in a town that most people would cut off their left arm to get a toehold in, and you’ve got nothing but complaints. If Newton is such a hellhole from your perspective, MOVE. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/44 "2007-03-16T15:02:05Z")
[QUOTE= bluethree] Yeah! Only the wealthy should be able to enjoy pool swimming on a blistering hot day! The poor don’t need pools to swim in, they’re too busy eking out a living. And that’s as it should be. And what’s with libraries? If you’re too poor to buy a book, you shouldn’t be reading! [/QUOTE] What does this have to do with ANYTHING? The pool would be an escalator to nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/45 "2007-03-16T19:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=tashabot] You’re “stealing” work from the union. What that means is, they have to consistently prove that they’re needed. Nine times out of ten, if you approach the unions about volunteer labor, they’ll do it, because it’s good PR (and yes, they do care about what the public thinks about them) and because it “proves” they’re “needed.” [/QUOTE] Except they’re trying to prove the trade itself is still needed, not the union. A non-union carpenter can be every bit as good as a union carpenter. You’re confusing skill with organization. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/46 "2007-03-16T19:04:52Z")
Maybe, but anyone can label themself a carpenter. If your a union carpenter you do have to attend school and work as an apprentice for a certain period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/47 "2007-03-16T23:01:21Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] One must assume that the reason the alleged pool has allegedly deteriorated is because the city could not afford the ongoing costs. Perhaps due to a lack of taxes or something, I dunno. I applaud the OP’s alleged sense of civic duty; but he is not thinking it through. A proper sense of civic duty would be a willingness to have his tax dollars help pay for the support of a public pool. Or a public library. Otherwise, he is demonstrating that his only concern is for his pocket, not his community. [/QUOTE] I agree with you mostly although I think **ralph** ’s taxes (for repairing AND operating the pool) per year would be far less than the value of his time spent volunteering and organizing his own repair squad. Let’s say it costs $200K annually (high estimate) to operate and maintain that pool and his town has 31,200 households. An average of $6.41 annually to each household. I believe **ralph** ’s time is more valuable than that…hopefully. [QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] **MOST IMPORTANTLY,** who (if nobody steps up to pay for all the incidentals of running a public pool) is going to pay for the brand spanking new [ATTRACTIVE NUISANCE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance) that **ralph124c** and his merry band of Good Samaritans have created? Oh, this is a great question. Let’s see one good answer on this one. [/quote] The pool already qualifies as an “attractive nuisance”, as is. Pretty stupid of a city manager to let that remain status quo, eh? If there is no intention of getting the pool fixed, then fill it up with dirt and remove the attractive nuisance. > [@](#): > > All you idiots that are so quick to jump up and down to decry the unions and pillory those “assholes” who want to keep the pool closed seem awfully willing to spend **ralph124c** ’s money. But I would bet dollars to donuts that if it was a bond item or a tax request on your own ballot, you’d vote it down in a second. Everything is a good idea when someone else is paying for it. Too generalizing there. It depends on the collective of voters and their needs/wants. The dollar amount is a factor to be sure, but not the only deciding factor. If the cost was an average of $6.41 annually per household, I would vote for it. > [@](#): > > A pool isn’t a stone statue. You don’t just put it up and then leave it alone for all the world to enjoy. It takes work. It takes maintenance. It takes a whole hell of a lot more money than just the market value of six or seven myopic do-gooders and three weekends. But **ralph** ’s attempt to fix a situation just might be the catalyst to spark interest in doing something about the pool. That might, in turn may get the city, unions and citizens working together to come to a decision on what to do with an attractive nuisance. I have to agree with you that **ralph** didn’t think this through, but maybe he knows now what this pool will actually cost to operate, and then be part of a bigger all-encompassing solution. > [@tashabot](#): > > You’re “stealing” work from the union. What that means is, they have to consistently prove that they’re needed. Nine times out of ten, if you approach the unions about volunteer labor, they’ll do it, because it’s good PR (and yes, they do care about what the public thinks about them) and because it “proves” they’re “needed.” > > Are you getting the general gist here? They have to put up a fight because people who aren’t in unions tend to despise them, so they have to prove that they’re still needed. > > My union does volunteer stuff all the time - for nonprofits, for kids shows, benefit concerts, etc. But if someone tries to set something up without us we freak out - because we need to prove, somehow, that we’re not useless. And honestly, we aren’t, for the most part. At least, laborers unions. We provide the ability to make a decent wage for something a person has spent a lifetime learning but never went to college for. Sometimes, bullying is the only way to get that done, but usually we’re just trying to make a point. > > If the city is under contract with the unions, they have to put up a fight. It’s essentially in the contract. Had you approached the unions saying “this is what we want to do,” they more than likely would have sent some apprentices in to help you, for free, as good PR and on the job training. But you, unknowingly, went around them and there’s nothing that’ll annoy a unionite more than that. > > I think that it’s one part assholery, and one part survival instinct on the union side of things. Proof that unions are needed lies in the quality of their work, not in the tactics they use to “prove” that they are needed. If they have to resort to tactics, then they are useless. Superior work by unions without tactics will get my support. Protectionist tactics for inferior product wont. I say that as a current business owner of 15 years (who left a 12 year union membership job to start his own business) because I thought I could do better. As for the union response to **ralph** , my question is…Why didn’t the union take the time to explain to **ralph** the nature of the union/city contract and how that complicates things when volunteers are involved, instead of the going to the “stealing wages” tripe? Citizens are not required to learn Collective Bargaining 101 in order to avoid making judgment errors regarding city matters, unions and volunteerism. It’s arrogance (from unions) like that which gets citizen’s despise. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/48 "2007-03-17T02:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Do you deliver your own mail? Do you build your own roads? do you haul your own garbage? Do you put out your own fires? Do you have your own jail? Do you fight your own wars? Do you inspect your own meat? [/QUOTE] Let’s see, police, fire, military, roads, and swimming pools. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn’t belong. I want a pony. Doesn’t everyone want a pony? No? Too bad. Let’s enact a tax and buy ponies for everyone. YAY! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/49 "2007-03-17T02:58:28Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Let’s see, police, fire, military, roads, and swimming pools. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn’t belong. I want a pony. Doesn’t everyone want a pony? No? Too bad. Let’s enact a tax and buy ponies for everyone. YAY! [/QUOTE] So you concede my point. Thank you. You support taxing your neighbors, you just think you know how to spend it better than they do. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/50 "2007-03-17T03:10:20Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] So you concede my point. Thank you. You support taxing your neighbors, you just think you know how to spend it better than they do. [/QUOTE] I do not support taxing my neighbors, I don’t think there should be taxes at all. Since there are taxes, however, I’d rather they go to the fire dept, for example, rather than a swimming pool. :rolleyes: But I still want my pony. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/51 "2007-03-17T03:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] I do not support taxing my neighbors, I don’t think there should be taxes at all. [/QUOTE] Ah, one of those, are you? Have fun storming the castle. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/52 "2007-03-17T03:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] But I still want my pony. [/QUOTE] I’ll add, if you can convince you fellow citizens to support and vote for it, possibly in an off-year election, there’s no reason you can’t have a tax-supported pony to ride in a tax-supported pony-riding-place. It won’t be _yours_; you’ll have to share it with the other citizens who have kicked in. I’ll also add: where the hell is the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/53 "2007-03-17T04:47:10Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I’ll add, if you can convince you fellow citizens to support and vote for it, possibly in an off-year election, there’s no reason you can’t have a tax-supported pony to ride in a tax-supported pony-riding-place. It won’t be _yours_; you’ll have to share it with the other citizens who have kicked in. [/QUOTE] So you’ll agree that a tax supported “pony-riding-place” is about as legitimate as a tax supported swimming pool, correct? Why have either? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/54 "2007-03-17T05:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] I do not support taxing my neighbors, I don’t think there should be taxes at all. Since there are taxes, however, I’d rather they go to the fire dept, for example, rather than a swimming pool. :rolleyes: But I still want my pony. [/QUOTE] So you want to take funds away from the troops? Why do you hate the troops? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/55 "2007-03-17T13:36:50Z")
[QUOTE= Frank] I’ll also add: where the hell is the OP? [/QUOTE] The OP is in Newton, MA. I go to school there. It’s the fourth-safest place in the USA. I suppose when you aren’t running for your life, you have time to sit around and think of things about which to be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/56 "2007-03-17T13:44:23Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] So you’ll agree that a tax supported “pony-riding-place” is about as legitimate as a tax supported swimming pool, correct? [/QUOTE] Probably less legitimate, but if a tax-supported rec center decides to include both in its offerings, and the locality can afford it and the citizenry are willing to support it, I’m fine with that. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The OP is in Newton, MA. I meant why hasn’t he come back to the thread. And I must say, if he is an example of public education in Newton, I’m not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/57 "2007-03-17T13:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I meant why hasn’t he come back to the thread. [/QUOTE] Too much bad smarty people internet make him head hurt. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/58 "2007-03-17T13:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=black rabbit] Too much bad smarty people internet make him head hurt. [/QUOTE] Nah, he’s stuck in the pool, painted himself into a corner. 😃 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/59 "2007-03-17T21:03:00Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Probably less legitimate, but if a tax-supported rec center decides to include both in its offerings, and the locality can afford it **and the citizenry are willing to support it** , I’m fine with that. [/QUOTE] Even if only 18% of the voters support it, as in my library expansion example? ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626/60 "2007-03-17T21:54:34Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] I suppose when you aren’t running for your life, you have time to sit around and think of things about which to be offended. [/QUOTE] I heard they closed that public pool because some law student posed in a bikini there once! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-pool-repair-job-foiled-by-unions/395626.md?page=4)