# That's IT, I give up! Shakespeare - you suck **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454 "2008-10-11T10:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/1 "2008-10-11T10:43:59Z")
I’ve had it. I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried, but I just don’t get Shakespeare. I’ve studied him to A level at school, seen a couple of his plays live and watched loads of film adaptations, and I can only conclude that he blows chunks. I’ve just wasted half an hour watching yet another film adaptation of Shakespeare and I spent most of it straining to understand what the hell people were saying, who anyone was or just generally what the fuck was going on. Fine, I accept that this may make me a philistine and that I’m spitting on my national heritage, but I stand by my statement: Shakespeare is shit. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/2 "2008-10-11T10:54:45Z")
You can’t even get [this scene](http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=rhMhSWiNWzE) from Hamlet? ---
**Author:** ![Rebo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rebo/32/13005_2.png) [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/3 "2008-10-11T11:10:44Z")
I don’t get that scene, or any other. I hear words, but they don’t make sense! I can understand it slightly better if I read it, but it’s a struggle. The language is too arcane. I’m with you, **IP**. Though I wouldn’t call Shakespeare’s work shit, it is too difficult to enjoy, unless it’s re-written in everyday English. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/4 "2008-10-11T11:11:17Z")
Watch Kenneth Brannaugh’s _Much Ado About Nothing_. It’s much easier to understand - reading the play afterwards will be easier. Truly. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/5 "2008-10-11T11:28:42Z")
> [@Rebo](#): > > I don’t get that scene, or any other. I hear words, but they don’t make sense! . [explained here.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ej4zNlhpU) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/6 "2008-10-11T11:39:05Z")
**Illuminatiprimus** – Try these. > **[Macbeth (Graphic Shakespeare): William Shakespeare: 9781904104063: Amazon.com:...](https://www.amazon.com/Macbeth-Graphic-Shakespeare-William/dp/1904104061)** > > Macbeth (Graphic Shakespeare) \[William Shakespeare\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Macbeth (Graphic Shakespeare) > **[King Lear (Graphic Shakespeare): William Shakespeare: 9781904104070: Amazon.com:...](https://www.amazon.com/King-Lear-Graphic-Shakespeare-William/dp/190410407X)** > > King Lear (Graphic Shakespeare) \[William Shakespeare\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. King Lear (Graphic Shakespeare) > **[Graphic Classics Macbeth: Haynes, Stephen, Spender, Nick: 9780764161407:...](https://www.amazon.com/Macbeth-Graphic-Classics-Stephen-Haynes/dp/0764161407)** > > Graphic Classics Macbeth \[Haynes, Stephen, Spender, Nick\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Graphic Classics Macbeth And, my personal favorite– > **[Amazon.com: Twelfth Night: Cartoon Shakespeare (Graphic Shakespeare):...](https://www.amazon.com/Twelfth-Night-Howard-William-Shakespeare/dp/1904104096)** > > Amazon.com: Twelfth Night: Cartoon Shakespeare (Graphic Shakespeare): 9781904104094: Shakespeare, William, Howard, John H.: Books Complete text, & the illustration take the place of actors. Makes it easier to follow. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/7 "2008-10-11T11:45:23Z")
Stop straining. You don’t have to understand every word (as I keep telling my husband during _Primeval_), just get the gist. Your brain will switch into Shakespear mode if you relax. It won’t if you’re tense. I agree that Branagh’s movies are spectacular. He has a real gift for bring out the ability in most of his actors to make Shakespearian dialogue seem just like people talking. And _Much Ado…_ is one of the most modern of Will’s plays, IMHO. Try that one for first, and then move to Branagh’s _Hamlet_. After that much subconscious language training, even the histories become penetrable. OH! And watch _Shakespeare in Love_. It’s Stoppard, not Shakespear, but it has a lot of the same rhythms and style. It’s sort of Shakespearesque. It might help you slip into the flow. Plus, it’s a great movie and you get to see Gwyneth Paltrow’s boobies. (And Joseph Fiennes’ neck. Nom nom nom.) ---
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/8 "2008-10-11T12:00:41Z")
I wouldn’t post at all if your thread title had been “ **That’s IT, I give up! Shakespeare - I don’t like you!** ” You are under no obligation to like Shakespeare, or anything else for that matter. I’m not going to offer alternative versions to lure you to the Shakespeare loving side. We don’t all have to like everything. I can listen to someone passionately defend his notion Italian opera is superior to German opera, that Caruso’s is the best ever recording of _La donna è mobile_, and once I hear it, it will unlock the secret magic that will make me love opera as all right thinking persons should. But it won’t. I don’t like it. It’s not for me. Just as I have inferred that Shakespeare is not for you. However, regardless of our dislike, neither Shakespeare nor opera…suck. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/9 "2008-10-11T12:20:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > OH! And watch _Shakespeare in Love_. It’s Stoppard, not Shakespear, but it has a lot of the same rhythms and style. It’s sort of Shakespearesque. One detail of note is that while the play-within-a-play is rife with the flowery dialog the OP has trouble grasping, the conventional off-stage dialog of the characters is more coherent. I suppose future generations will watch our movies and TV shows and ask “Did people _really_ talk like that?” Anyway, a good annotated version will dispell a lot of the frustration and time wasted wondering what the hell a “paten” is. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/10 "2008-10-11T12:45:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > One detail of note is that while the play-within-a-play is rife with the flowery dialog the OP has trouble grasping, the conventional off-stage dialog of the characters is more coherent. Well, the play-within-a-play is R&J, so of course that’s Shakespeare himself (more or less, there were some edits. Gwyneth was cheated out of Juliet’s full death scene in the best interest of _SiL_’s pacing, for example.) The offstage dialogue is, I think, easy for the modern ear to grasp, yet still reminiscent of Shakespeare, which is why I think it’s good for familiarizing your brain with the cadence and convolutions of Shakespearean speech. Someone with more book learnin’ will have to explain exactly how it’s like and not like Shakespeare’s own writing (meter, perhaps?), but even an offstage bit like Viola’s romantic starry eyed exchange with her nurse about the nature of love and theater is Shakespearish: > [@](#): > > Nurse: Be still. Playhouses are not for wellborn ladies. > > Viola: Oh ! l’m not so wellborn. > > N: Well-monied is the same as wellborn, and well-married is more so. Lord Wessex was looking at you tonight. > > V: All the men at court are without poetry. > If they see me, they see my father’s fortune. > I will have poetry in my life, and adventure. > And love. Love above all. > > N: Like Valentine and Silvia ? > > V: No, not the artful postures of love, > but love that overthrows life. > Unbiddable, ungovernable, > like a riot in the heart, > and nothing to be done, > come ruin or rapture. > Love as there has never been in a play. > l will have love, > or l will end my days as– > > N: As a nurse ? Not Shakespeare. But sort of Shakespeare. Shakespearesque language - training wheels, if you will, for the Shakespearian ear. > [@](#): > > I suppose future generations will watch our movies and TV shows and ask “Did people really talk like that?” Absolutely. I already wonder that of the sonorous tones of leading men and newscasters in the 50’s. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/11 "2008-10-11T13:20:45Z")
In high school I always thought Shakespeare kinda sucked, he always went for the cheap joke and his characters were sometimes so totally dimwitted (Romeo & Juliet for example? Why the hell didn’t they just steal some of daddy’s money and run off together?) it made the plot lose something vital. Unless Romeo & Juliet is actually a comedy, then it sort of makes sense…Anyway, I always heard his plays were really popular with common folks and back then you could drink at the theater. My readings of Shakespeare have led me to observe that many of his plays were most likely perfect for a theater full of drunks. Some of his more serious stuff is better/deeper, but for the most part I agree - sucks. Just because someone is a dead, white guy and in the English canon doesn’t mean his stuff is good. Maybe I’ll try reading Shakespeare again someday, because I do realize that time can change one’s perception of things. Well anyway, that’s my unbidden and probably unread two cents. Oh, and also Catcher in the Rye sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/12 "2008-10-11T13:22:41Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Fine, I accept that this may make me a philistine and that I’m spitting on my national heritage, but I stand by my statement: Shakespeare is shit. That’s like a man with a tin ear saying Mozart is shit. Y’know, I just don’t get half the stuff in _A Brief History of Time_; that Hawking guy is shit. Your loss. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/13 "2008-10-11T13:39:27Z")
Can you understand the following? It’s Hamlet basically considering whether it is better to live and fight tremendous odds, or die(kill himself) and gain eternal sleep(but possible go to hell). It’s probably Shakespeare’s most famous set of lines and can’t be that hard to understand. To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause: there’s the respect That makes calamity of so long life; ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/14 "2008-10-11T13:44:57Z")
I’ve watched Shakespeare in Love and I enjoyed it very much, I’m not averse to non-contemporary language but Shakespeare is just so incredibly impenetrable to me. I accept that this is very much about me, as he’s not considered one of the greatest playwrights ever for nothing. Still, it frustrates me that whenever I try to appreciate what I’m told repeatedly is literature/drama gold I’m left feeling unsatisfied and defeated. The one Shakespeare production I really enjoyed was the film version of Titus Andronicus staring Anthony Hopkins and Jessica Lange - loved that film so much and have bought it as gifts for others. Ironically enough TA is considered one of Shakespeare’s weaker plays, apparently. Clearly my tastes are at odd with most of western civilisation. I’m just IMing with a friend of mine who says he hates Shakespeare too except for Much Ado, so maybe I’ll give that a go (my last attempt!). ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/15 "2008-10-11T13:47:50Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Can you understand the following? Yes I can - it’s not that I can’t understand a word that’s being said, it’s that I can’t follow much of what is said and it makes it hard to really know what is going on. And whilst I can pretty much muddle along with the plays, I just get tired of being told that every word of Shakespeare is gold when I’m reading it like it’s in a second language. I just feel like I’m failing in an area that I really enjoy - I love classic literature, drama and history, yet Shakespeare = fail. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/16 "2008-10-11T13:50:00Z")
I think the sad thing lies in the real problem that these people likely have: it isn’t that the words themselves are hard to understand, but that understanding the words requires paying attention and pondering their meaning. For those who say they can’t understand Shakespeare, I’d advise turning off the TV and disconnecting the Internet for a month or so, and devote that time to reading. If it’s easier simply to wallow in the poverty of your intellectual life as it stands, I won’t spend time arguing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/17 "2008-10-11T14:04:05Z")
Oh to be as towering an intellectual giant as you **Koxinga**. You’re right, my diet of reality TV, celebrity gossip magazines, pulp science fiction/fantasy novels and addiction to online first person shooters is to blame. You know I’m amazed I can even read Shakespeare at all, what with my mayfly attention span. Clearly the fact I don’t like Shakespeare is yet another symptom of my below-average IQ. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/18 "2008-10-11T14:09:41Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The one Shakespeare production I really enjoyed was the film version of Titus Andronicus staring Anthony Hopkins and Jessica Lange - loved that film so much and have bought it as gifts for others. Ironically enough TA is considered one of Shakespeare’s weaker plays, apparently. Clearly my tastes are at odd with most of western civilisation. Oh yes, yes! I loved that one too. Nice and gory. **Mahaloth** , I wonder if part of the problem with Shakespeare in print is the funny line structure. I mean, it’s done that way in scripts to help actors breathe and find the right pacing, but when reading silently, maybe this would be easier: > [@](#): > > To be, or not to be: that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them. To die, to sleep. No more. And by a sleep, to say we end the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep…to sleep…perchance to dream. Aye, there’s the rub! For in that sleep of death, what \*dreams \*may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause. There’s the respect that makes calamity of so long life. Still, better with an actor. Shakespeare wasn’t meant to be read any more than _Star Wars_ or _Lost_. Their scripts look awkward on paper too, I bet. A gist, but not word for word, modern “translation” might be something like: To live, or to die, that’s the question. Whether it’s better to just let stuff get to you and take it, or to fight it and risk getting killed. Death is like sleeping, right? That’s all. And when you’re asleep, you’re not bothered by the heartache and trouble of life. Who wouldn’t want that? To die, to sleep…to sleep…to dream. Shit. There’s the catch. If death is like sleep, what might we dream of when dead? That’s gotta keep you up at night. That fear is why we keep living through the suffering. Just doesn’t have the same ring to it, eh? The beauty really is in the words, once you let yourself not worry about what each one means and just let it wash over you. The man never wrote an original _story_, he just strings better words on them than most people can. If you’re not a word nerd - if you’ve never savored a word like anaphylaxis - completely independent of its meaning, just as a beautiful word - then maybe Shakespeare isn’t for you. Not 'cause you’re stupid, but just 'cause you’re not turned on by language. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/19 "2008-10-11T14:13:20Z")
It’s not for everyone. It doesn’t make you a bad person. Heck, at least you tried. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/20 "2008-10-11T14:14:34Z")
As a last gasp, try watching the Reduced Shakespeare Company’s production of “The Complete Works of Shakespeare (abridged).” But I feel for you. Shakespeare, even lesser Shakespeare, is The Word Of Man Writ Large. _ **Hamlet:** What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me— nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so._ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454.md?page=2)