# That's IT, I give up! Shakespeare - you suck **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454 "2008-10-11T10:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/81 "2008-10-17T23:30:53Z")
I figured I’d just add to this thread; I just read _King Lear_ on my flight/layover to Chicago today. Pretty darned gripping! I think the de-eyeing of Glouchester has got to be one of the most evil things I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/82 "2008-10-18T13:47:37Z")
Have you heard Monty Python’s version of _King Lear_? It’s on “The Album of the Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of _Monty Python and The Holy Grail_.” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/83 "2008-10-18T16:12:48Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I don’t actually, but that wasn’t what I was referring to. The line to which you were responding (“brush up your Shakespeare and the women you will wow”) is a line from the song [Brush Up Your Shakespeare](http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/kissmekate/brushupyourshakespeare.htm) from the musical [Kiss Me, Kate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Me,_Kate_(film)) (music by Cole Porter). ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/84 "2008-10-19T03:40:34Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I’d suggest renting some of the BBC/Time Life dvd versions of his plays. This was a project to present all of Shakespeare’s plays on television. I think these were the ones I watched back in the 80’s. They’re FABULOUS. I still have Much Ado About Nothing on VHS tape, and I still love to watch it. Cherie Lunghi as Beatrice and Robert Lindsay as Benedick are just wonderful. I actually used to dream about Robert Lindsay because of this production. 😉 I saw King Lear in that series too. I was in Texas on a temporary assignment for IBM, watching Shakespeare alone in a hotel room. I sobbed my eyes out and was a wreck the next day because it was so emotionally wrenching to me. I think it helps if you get used to reading stuff in an older style. 18th and 19th century lit can help tune your ear to Shakespeare. When I go to a Shakespeare play, I have to kinda settle in and let my ears get tuned to what’s going on. The actors make a HUGE difference – a good actor can really bring the words alive. Too often the lines are spoken too quickly for modern ears to parse easily. IMHO, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/85 "2008-10-19T04:45:14Z")
In high school, I had the same problem the OP had. I think I was trying to understand Shakespeare like prose plays of today. It wasn’t until I read that his writing was not English prose at the time but was purposefully overly flowery, poetic, symbolic, whatever you want to call it, that I learned how to read his works. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/86 "2008-10-19T04:56:01Z")
When I was 14, I read Richard Armour’s _Twisted Tales from Shakespeare_ that somehow ignited my interest, and I took several classes on the Bard through high school and college because of it. To this day, when I see a performance, I am still reminded of Armour’s parody that made it more accessible for me. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/87 "2008-10-19T23:12:11Z")
Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare is highly recommended [post=4632072]here[/post]. He is a great explainer. If this doesn’t do it, nothing will. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/88 "2008-10-19T23:29:38Z")
> [@sjc](#): > > I agree that it’s not exactly a romance–though I think this aspect of the story shouldn’t be ignored–it’s more of a tragedy. It’s an object lesson on the dangers of allowing yourself to be ruled by your passions. The protagonists die at the end – practically the definition of a tragedy – although not a revenger’s tragedy like Hamlet, where \*everyone \*dies in the end. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/89 "2008-10-20T14:05:47Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > The protagonists die at the end – practically the definition of a tragedy Well … don’t forget the singing goats. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/90 "2008-10-20T14:13:32Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Well … don’t forget the singing goats. Nitpick: True tragedies have songs about goats. The goats don’t sing: they get sacrificed to the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/91 "2008-10-20T14:26:57Z")
Ever seen a goat being sacrificed? I tells ya, they sing. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/92 "2008-10-20T14:28:31Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Ever seen a goat being sacrificed? I tells ya, they sing. As their throats are being cut? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/93 "2008-10-20T14:33:16Z")
There’s a lot that goes on before they actually lose the ability to vocalize. Blood sacrifice is a noisy and messy affair. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/94 "2008-10-20T14:43:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > There’s a lot that goes on before they actually lose the ability to vocalize. Blood sacrifice is a noisy and messy affair. Finally I’m understanding a lot of what went on in Shakespeare’s tragedies, and in the even bloodier tragedies of his contemporaries, like Marlowe and Webster. How could I miss those goats? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/95 "2008-10-20T14:53:14Z")
And you all thought Shakepeare was a crypto-Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/96 "2008-10-20T15:27:50Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I consider Mel Gibson generally to be a right-wing numbskull. However, I once saw a film of him discussing _Hamlet_ in a classroom (I forget whether it was junior or senior high) and I thought he did a good job of conveying the passion of Shakespeare’s language. I bet he loves _The Merchant of Venice_. I’ve had the displeasure of seeing some awful theatre in my time, and Shakespeare does a pretty good job in comparison. Macbeth and Othello have enough plain nastiness in them to keep my attention, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/97 "2008-10-20T17:38:12Z")
An interesting thread, and one that suggests the following may be worth stating for the record. What you like is up to you. Liking Shakespeare does not mean you are an intellectual, or a cultured person, or a good one. Not liking Shakespeare does not mean you are stupid, intellectually weak or a philistine. Not liking something is not the same as `It sucks`. Those who like Shakespeare sometimes over-state his importance, legacy and achievement - and the same goes for fans of almost anyone or anything else. Those who do not like Shakespeare sometimes do the reverse, and err on the side of being too dismissive. It is possible to like someone`s work and yet make allowance for his shortcomings and weaknesses. It is possible to dislike someone`s work and yet give respect and credit for his achievement. The point about Shakespeare is not that he was a flawless genius, and everything he wrote was of incomparable greatness. The point is that a lot of the time what he wrote was rather ordinary, but when he IS good, he can be pretty hard to beat. It is not surprising that some find it hard to understand Shakespeare. Language changes over time. He was writing 400 years ago, so of course it takes a little effort to learn what some of the words and phrases actually mean in modern terms. It`s up to you whether you want to make that effort. Many would say it is worth it, and not really as challenging as it may first appear. Some would disagree. As with everything else, taste and personal aptitude may vary. One point worth making is that some teachers, books and guides are more helpful than others at helping you to figure out what the language means and why the good bits have stood the test of time (many posters to this thread are trying to help you find the good sources that really work). If you have tried some teachers / books / guides and did not find them very useful, you could try some others. One reason why some people are enthusiastic about Shakespeare is that he was very good at writing about what is sometimes known, perhaps rather grandly, as `the human condition`. In other words, he was good at writing about themes and situations that most people can relate to, and illustrating some of the conflicts and problems that crop up in life time and time again. He was so good at this, that many of his insights and views seem to hold up well four hundred years later - which is quite an achievement. I have an honours degree in English Literature, and some of my exams were specfically about Shakespeare. I don`t particularly like Shakespeare`work, and there are many other authors and playwrights whose work I prefer. But I respect what he achieved, and I can see why each new generation seems to discover something worthwhile in his work. I understand why he is still discussed and taught, and why his work is still performed, and I know that some of his poetry is absolutely outstanding. My advice to you: ignore the `Shakespeare industry` and people who drone on and on about him as if he was the only great writer in history. Be slow to dismiss his work, because there`s some good stuff in there. Accept that maybe you just haven`t been given the right kind of help to appreciate his work and its reputation. If Shakespeare just is not for you, maybe try revisiting his work in a year or two. You may find he is a lot less `sucky` than you thought! ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/98 "2008-10-20T19:34:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It wasn’t until I read that his writing was not English prose at the time but was purposefully overly flowery, poetic, symbolic, whatever you want to call it, that I learned how to read his works. John Donne and Edward Lord Herbert, approximate contemporaries of Shakespeare, competed with each other approvingly to see who could write the most “obscure” poems: poems dense with metaphor, allusion and abbreviated references. The pleasure in these virtuoso performances is precisely in the fact that they take all of your concentrated mental power to puzzle them out. I see some of this in Shakespeare’s motivation too, which is what **St. Cad** may be talking about. Here is an example of Donne’s obscurity: My face in thine eye, thine in mine appeares, And true plaine hearts doe in the faces rest, Where can we finde two better hemispheares Without sharpe North, without declining West? What ever dyes, was not mixt equally; If our two loves be one, or, thou and I Love so alike, that none doe slacken, none can die. Alexander Pope thought Donne’s satires were worthwhile, but too obscure. So, he helpfully re-wrote some of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/99 "2008-10-20T21:11:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And you all thought Shakepeare was a crypto-Catholic. I thought Shakespeare was a closet Pagan, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454/100 "2008-10-21T04:11:46Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > There’s something you need to remember here. Our first exposure to Shakespeare is in school. And everything we ever hear about him was his brilliance and incredible importance to Western culture and the resonance of his works and the great influence and the inimitable blah blah blah. In other words, before you see one word he’s written, you’re EXPECTING the experience to be no fun whatsoever! And then the archaic language, which no one has prepared you for, hits you like a wrecking ball, and then you have to learn all this junk about iambic pentameter and verse versus prose and courtly etiquette and theological imagery…even if you really want to learn, it’s like running the Daytona 500 with three flat tires and a malfunctioning alternator. > > My suggestion? Approach his works the way they’re supposed to be approached. As a _spectator_. Watch a play and see how the flowery language and dramatic shifts happen onstage. Get into a discussion. Pick up the Cliffs Notes (you weren’t the first and you won’t be the last) to get some idea of what these guys are talking about. Or even go the Dave Barry route and poke some good-natured fun at the whole thing. I concur. Walker Percy’s _The Loss of the Creature_ specifically mentions Shakespeare’s works as one of the great losses of modern teaching. That and dogfish: "But since neither of these methods of recovering the dogfish is pedagogically feasible-perhaps the great man even less so than the Bomb-I wish to propose the following educational technique which should prove equally effective for Harvard and Shreveport High School. I propose that English poetry and biology should be taught as usual, but that at irregular intervals, poetry students should find dogfishes on their desks and biology students should find Shakespeare sonnets on their dissecting boards. I am serious in declaring that a Sarah Lawrence English major who began poking about in a dogfish with a bobby pin would learn more in thirty minutes than a biology major in a whole semester; and that the latter upon reading on her dissecting board: \* That time of year Thou may’st in me behold When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang Upon those boughs which shake against the cold- Bare ruin’d choirs where late the sweet birds sang.\* might catch fire at the beauty of it." - Walker Percy, _The Loss of the Creature_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-it-i-give-up-shakespeare-you-suck/467454.md?page=6)