That's it. I have HAD IT!!

Well, persoanlly, I think Bush is an OK president- we have had worse. He has made two critical mistakes so far- the 1st is Iraq, but we have had a couple instances where we got into a war based upon doubtful reasons and then couldn’t get out.

But the “cut taxes for my rich buddies and increase spending- a lot of it for my rich buddies” thing is driving the USA into Bankruptcy. And what’s worse- the GOP knows that, but IMHO are running up a huge deficit just so’s they can blame the nessesary upcoming Tax increases on the Dems. Kerry has a plan- not a great plan true, and not one that will survice a GOP Congress- but at least a Plan. And, at the least he can veto the runaway spending. I don’t say the Kerry is a wonderful choice or that Bush is a terrible choice- but IMHO Kerry is the better of the two, and SOMEONE has to do SOMETHING about the deficit- and it ain’t gonna be GWB. :mad:

Note that my whole contribution to the Bush-Kerry threads here is one where I debunked the GOP “Big LIE” about Clinton having the “biggest Tax increase in history”. However, even if it wasn’t the “biggest” it was still pretty big. OTOH, that sort of thing may be what we need again, dammit. :frowning:

I blame the recent spate of nastiness mainly on the whole Clinton thing. Sure- before that both parties would claim all sorts of bad things about the others POLICIES, but the whole “xxx is the antichrist” thing is new. See- the Religious Right knew the Clinton was EVIL incarnate, and a bad President- yet ol Bill was hugely popular and extremely successful. Drove them nuts. They started with those weird conspiracy theories where Clinton was a murderer, etc.

Don’t get me wrong- both sides I think were surpised that it seemed to work, and both parties now use it.

But it does NOT work. No undeceided voter is swayed by such overblown Lies and Propaganda. All it does is convince the Choir that the Preacher is right- and they already know that. So all it really does is generate HATE for your opponent amoung those who are your loyal supporters anyway.

Which leads to Zev starting this thread here in the Pit. He even forgot to spell it “G-d” :smiley: He must be angry! ;j

Good rant Zev. And some good points.

Equipoise- umm, I see your point, but this was completely the wrong thread entirely for that. And- enver compare anything or anyone to the Nazis- it just makes you look bad. :wally

Preach it, sister. Too bad the people that are guilty as charged just skimmed past your post because they can’t be bothered with your insight.

If I could draw, I would have made a cartoon of two men in a coffee shop in Berlin, 1929. One of them says, “I swear, this is turning into Nazi Germany.” The other says, “Come on, Hans, don’t be so dramatic.”

The more people involved in anything, the more likely it is you’ll have jerks. The more entertainment-like the elections become, the more people get involved, even if “involved” just means they can quote a headline or accusation.

I could argue that civility isn’t warranted if you think the other side is not just wrong and dangerous, but evil. But I don’t think that argument really works.

What I do think is true is that, well, the cultures of the people who are involved in politics aren’t the same cultures, entirely, as those who were involved in the past.

I think many people in America cherish honesty (at least their version of it) over politeness. I don’t think that the sentiments have really changed much, just the willingness to express the sentiments in very strong language.

You were saying? :slight_smile:

It sounds very familiar. I’ve finally decided why bother. The lines here are drawn in concrete. The issues are too damned serious.
I wish we could have a political discussion on these boards without it resorting to shit slinging. But I’m afraid it ain’t happening sweetheart…

Zev… nice comments. Everybody else, all I can say at this point is, however you decide to vote, it is your vote, not mine, not your spouse’s, not mom and dad’s. It belongs to you, use your head and then vote your conscience. I think everything that can be said :rolleyes: has been said at this point. So unless there’s some big surprise coming. (jeeze…I hope not.) Let’s get this thing done and all come back and try to be friends again.
Peace to all…worldwide

It also makes zev’s point when any attempt at a real discussion of issues is immediately called a partisan attack.
In order to discuss the current presidency one must discuss the current president. Just because someone doesn’t like to hear a real point made by the opposition doesn’t make it any less true. Calling it a “partisan attack” and refusing to take it seriously is just making your own partisan attack. This is one of the reasons this election is getting so nasty, is because people are getting pissed off at not being taken seriously.

Neither the president nor the presidency are the topic of this thread! This started out as a discussion of how people are dragging vitriol and hatred into every discussion and making it a discussion about Bush and/or Kerry even when it isn’t. So what happened? It turned into a heated discussion about Bush and/or Kerry. You don’t see the irony?

“She’s not libanese, she’s a punjabi!”*

  • Our new favorite quote. From Bend it like Beckham.

You know Equipose, you really should stay away from scholarly works, they are usually written from the base assumption that the reader knows just a little bit about the subject and is not coming from a stance of “WON’T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!” hysteria. Compare Dr. Britt’s common points of Fascism to the U.S. right now, today, and you find that most of them aren’t even close to being applicable. Let’s look, shall we?
**

  1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism **. Hardly the exclusive province of a Fascist nation. All countries exhibit this to a greater or lesser degree. This is like saying that one of the characteristics of a Fascist Country is that it has borders.

**2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights **. Oh, if only we had some kind of document, a treaty…or a Bill…of our rights…how much better off we’d be. For this one to stick, Toots, you’ll have to show repeated and systematic denials of people’s rights that the courts refuses to address. You can’t.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause. This one is bunk. I know you are going to point at the war on terror and say that it fits the bill, but Sweetie, the terrorists attacked us first. It’s not scapegoating to hunt them down and eliminate them. People voluntarily choose to become terrorists and to take up arms against the civilized world. What this one is talking about is demonizing entire classes of people who are innocent as a focus for the anger of society as a whole; i.e. “The blacks” or “the Jews”, etc… Again, that’s not happening here.

**4. Supremacy of the Military ** You need to quote this one to understand: “Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected.” A tiny bit of research on this very site (and the #2 Google hit for “US budget spending percentages”) reveals that while the US spends more total money on the military than any other country on earth, in terms of a percentage of it’s GNP, we only spend 3%, ranking 52nd overall. Three measly percent. Not exactly a “disproportionate amount of government funding”. As for the “domestic agenda being neglected”, it is to laugh. Pork barrel DC is rolling along, fatter than ever.

**5. Rampant Sexism ** Condi Rice. Sandra Day O’Conner. 14 Senators are women, along with 62 representatives. How many powerful women must I name before you’ll concede that this is just baseless crap?

**6. Controlled Mass Media ** The government does not control mass media. Period. Show me one, just one, bit of proof that they do.

**7. Obsession with National Security **. How is this different that it’s been for the last 60 years? Were we a Fascist nation during the cold war too? Not to mention that providing security is one of the fundamental purposes of government, you dumb ass.

**8. Religion and Government are Intertwined **. Even though I disagree with the current President’s religion, and his propensity to base some of his policies upon those beliefs, the problem isn’t that the President has them, it’s with the beliefs themselves. That being said, the U.S. doesn’t have anything close to an official religion, unlike such Fascist countries as, say, Great Britain.

**9. Corporate Power is Protected ** I’ll give you a partial on this one. Even though “a mutually beneficial business/government relationship” is vital to the strength of any nations economy ( and business is the engine that drives America, not Government ), it’s a hopeless case trying to argue reality and common sense with people who see all corporations as evil, soulless entities bound and determined to chew up the “common man” and spit him out. Take the half point and go back to your coffee house, comrade, you’re not worth arguing with.
**

  1. Labor Power is Suppressed ** BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! No, really, say it again. Tell me alllllll about how labor power is “suppressed”. Those poor, put upon Unions! The world would be a better place if they could do things like unilaterally donate huge sums of money to the Democrats, regardless of their member’s personal politics (whose dues provide that money in the first place), or volunteer bodies for campaigning and “getting out the (Democratic) vote” efforts, or make or break certain candidates in certain jurisdictions with their endorsements. Tell me more about the terrible abuses heaped on “Labor”.

**11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts **. Maybe, maybe not, but that’s not really government’s job anyway, but the NEA is still funded, so I’m gonna have to say “No”, in addition to the fact that including “intellectuals” on this list is simply more “poor, poor pitiful me, I’m oppressed” bullshit from an academic.

**12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment **. Name one jurisdiction in the US where Police have “almost limitless power to enforce laws”. You can’t because they don’t, and burden of proof, reasonable search and seizure, and due process laws overwhelmingly favor the criminals, not the Police and the State. Which is as it should be. As disturbing as some portions of the Patriot Act potentially are, they are nowhere near the level of “almost limitless”.

**13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption **. Uh-huh. And I guarantee you some contractor was getting kickbacks at the Tower of Babel. This is no worse than anywhere, and a whole fuck of a lot better than in countries like, oh, I dunno, Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, where cronies of SH had the literal power of life and death over citizens.

**14. Fraudulent Elections **. This horse is dead. Leave it alone. You may not like the results of 2000, but they resulted from the letter of the law. If you don’t like 'em, change the laws.
So, 14 points, and only 1/2 of 1, along with a couple that are so general that they apply to every country on Earth, reasonably apply to the U.S.A. I tremble in fear of the imminent arrival of jack booted thugs. Y’know, Equipose, you might be better served staying away from things that you so aggressively don’t understand. Already nobody takes you serious because of your hysteria, don’t add rampant stupidity to the list.

Damn, a perfectly good thread shot to hell.
Oh well, it was a nice try Zev.
But you knew it was bound to happen when you started it.

You simply cast your bread upon the water…didn’t ya. :smiley:

Zev?..hey Zev… hmmm got sick of his own thread looks like.

I’m still here.

In the back of my mind I kind of knew that this would happen. Yet, even so, after hearing the things that I was hearing on the radio last night, I had to vent a bit, even if it meant opening this can of worms.

My position still stands. I’m all for hearty disagreement. I love a good, rousing debate. If only it didn’t have to come with all the insane rhetoric, demonization and name calling (not to mention all the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists out there).

Again, I ask, whatever happened to common civility?

Zev Steinhardt

Civility is not common, nor has it ever been, historically speaking.

I’m sorry to hear that. You don’t know how much so… :frowning:

Zev Steinhardt

yosemite and Tuckerfan, them’s my heroes. And Zev too. Well said.

Uh Weirddave, when come back, learn to read what I posted, what it was in response to, and what I wrote underneath it. To prove I understand the OP, I’ll refrain from calling you names. Toots.

Equipoise, you couldn’t “prove” yourself out of a cardboard box.

Jesus, what are you, kidding? You posted “No, he’s not (being hysterical)” **in response to **John Corrado’s response to another poster, and what you wrote as “proof” was that so and so did a study listing what Fascist states have in common and you proceeded to list these characteristics, stating that the U.S. was demonstrating most of them.

What I **posted **,in response to your conclusion was an analysis of the points on the list demonstrating that you are full of shit, and I even told you why, rather than just listing another man’s research and opining “HA! this applies to the U.S”. Also, I’m not condescending towards you because of your politics, I’m condescending towards you because you fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down before landing in the idiot bush on moron hill.

Well, as I (rather futilely) suggested to Lissener a short time before his departure: Yes, you should.

In our society, major decisions are made by people selected through an electoral process. You are much more likely to get support for actions you desire if you do not go out of your way to antagonize people who might vote for candidates favoring your positions, simply to have the smug satisfaction of having flung an insult at a person who is only 90% or 99% (or even only 70%) in agreement with your views. The opinions of those whose opinions are not in accord with your views 100% may irritate you. However, if you condemn and ridicule everyone who does not support your positions 100% , today, it is unlikely that you will find any of those people supporting your positions tomorrow. Is expressing your smug scorn more important to you than achieving your objectives? Then heap it on.

Courage. I find you a very civilising and positive influence.

So do you really believe Bush & Co had not determined to invade Iraq before

  • the UNSC Feb meeting on the matter; and/or

  • the Sept 2001 attacks?

And do you believe Bush did in fact intend to exhaust the diplomatic and negotiation options before exploring a military action?

If not, exactly what do you mean by ‘lying’ and ‘not looking too closely’?