# That's not what that recipe means! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558 "2020-04-25T15:51:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/81 "2020-04-27T00:22:25Z")
I’m Chinese American and grew up in a mostly Asian American community in L.A. where Chinese restaurants were aplenty and even the “Americanized” dishes were very “authentic” so I never knew there was a whole subset of Chinese American food known to some as “East Coast Chinese food” or “New York-style Chinese food” until I was in D.C. area and ordered “chow mein.” Now chow mein literally means “stir-fried noodles” and in L.A. usually refers to a dish of soft noodles, stir-fried with some meat and veggies and savory seasonings but not very much sauce. Apparently, the East Coast version of this refers to a very sauce heavy dish with lots of meat and vegetables- and no noodles! Granted, they included a packet of fried crispy noodles, the kind you get in a can, but this is a far cry from what I know as “chow mein”. Apparently, the closest equivalent in the East Coast is “lo mein”, which I’ve never heard of before. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/82 "2020-04-27T02:01:06Z")
> [@baronsabato](#): > > I’m Chinese American and grew up in a mostly Asian American community in L.A. 4th generation DC-born-and-raised Chinese American here, I believe this is your problem. 😉 Southern California’s Chinese diaspora is much more varied than almost anywhere else. Anywhere outside SoCal or Pacific NW you’re most likely dealing with only Cantonese, and your experience in DC is probably much more representative of most Americans’ experience with Chinese food than what you grew up with. There’s also the specific matter of “lo mein” vs “chow mein.” Most Americans have no idea there’s a difference; Panda Express and cheap takeout have completely muddied the issue. What you received in DC was cheap takeout bullshit. “Chow mein” should be the soft long noodles but pan-fried until crispy, almost like deep-fried. Then the meat, veggies and sauce are put on top. Done correctly, it’s amazing. They give you that fried noodles from a can because it’s much easier and faster than properly pan frying soft noodles. The stir-fried soft noodle dish you describe is what I would call “lo mein.” ---
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/83 "2020-04-27T02:13:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Oh and if the nachos are overloaded and difficult to handle neatly, you betcha, our comes the fork. I use a fork to load just the right combination of meat, cheese, jalapenos & sour cream & guac on my chip. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/84 "2020-04-27T10:43:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Acsenray** , the original “ketchup” was a fish sauce, and I’ve heard of mushroom and banana ketchups as well. Of course, none of those others caught on in the US. Mushroom ketchup [used to be quite popular](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks) in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/85 "2020-04-27T10:50:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Mushroom ketchup [used to be quite popular](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks) in the US. The Townsends channel is good YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/86 "2020-04-27T11:33:17Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > 4th generation DC-born-and-raised Chinese American here… > > There’s also the specific matter of “lo mein” vs “chow mein.” Most Americans have no idea there’s a difference; Panda Express and cheap takeout have completely muddied the issue. What you received in DC was cheap takeout bullshit. “Chow mein” should be the soft long noodles but pan-fried until crispy, almost like deep-fried. Then the meat, veggies and sauce are put on top. Done correctly, it’s amazing. They give you that fried noodles from a can because it’s much easier and faster than properly pan frying soft noodles. The stir-fried soft noodle dish you describe is what I would call “lo mein.” [According to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_mein#American_Chinese_cuisine), it’s an east coast vs. west coast thing; > [@](#): > > There is a regional difference in the US between the East and West Coast use of the term “chow mein”. On the East Coast, “chow mein” is always the crispy or “Hong Kong style”. At some restaurants located in those areas, the crispy chow mein noodles are sometimes deep fried and could be crispy “like the ones in cans” or “fried as crisp as hash browns”. At a few East Coast locations, “chow mein” is also served over rice. There, the steamed style using soft noodles is a separate dish called “lo mein”. On the West Coast, “chow mein” is always the steamed style; the crispy style is simply called “Hong Kong style” and the term “lo mein” is not widely used. This largely matches my personal experience. As a Caucasian who grew up in San Diego and now lives in the PNW, when I hear “chow mein” I always think soft noodles. I’ve never seen “lo mein” on a menu in any restaurant I’ve eaten in and I’ve never encountered the crispy noodle version. The only thing I would even think to use crispy chow mein noodles for is as a topping for a green salad with grilled chicken, assorted veggies, mandarin wedges, and some sort of sweet ginger-sesame dressing. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/87 "2020-04-27T11:55:24Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The Townsends channel is good YouTube. I will second this. I hesitate to post this because no one will know how bad this is. When I lived in Park Slope a new restaurant opened that purported to raise Puerto Rican cuisine to a higher level. I was very excited about this. My husband and I went and I ordered Pernil y Pasteles con Maduros. I received a sweet plantain “boat” with twists of hard fried mashed up tropical starchy veggies inside the boat, resting on “sea” of stewed pork. Y’all my not know how very wrong this was but perhaps also knowing this was a hipster ‘fusion’ place, you’ll understand how teeny, tiny the portion was as it was based on a quarter of a sweet plantain in a boat shape with a smear of meat paste underneath. So NOT the standard of a Puerto Rican serving. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/88 "2020-04-27T12:15:24Z")
I remember going to a (Canadian) Dairy Queen as a kid and ordering a bacon and egg sandwich. I was very disappointed to get some weird ham-like substance (i.e., back bacon) instead of normal bacon. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/89 "2020-04-27T13:00:26Z")
And be careful ordering [Chop Suey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_chop_suey). ---
**Author:** ![Rebo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rebo/32/13005_2.png) [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/90 "2020-04-27T13:13:45Z")
Baking soda is a common marinade ingredient for the meat in Asian stir fries. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/91 "2020-04-27T13:24:30Z")
Baking soda in general is the new darling of modern sciencey cooks. Everybody from Alton Brown, to Kenji to America’s Test Kitchen are putting Baking soda in all kinds of meat marinades and things , because the ph change helps browning and flavor development, allowing keeping the heat lower, or shortening the cooking time to reduce over cooking. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/92 "2020-04-27T13:38:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Like the name says, it should come with a _chili_ sauce, made of toasted dried peppers steeped in boiling water, then pureed, seasoned, and strained. > > The only time I’ve ever seen them with a tomato-based sauce is at a taco truck near my work which calls them “gringo enchiladas”, as opposed to “Mexican enchiladas” with the chili sauce. > > Apparently in Texas they like to top their enchiladas with “chili gravy”, which is very different and strange but also somewhat intriguing. Yep… enchilada literally means that it’s served with chilies. Which encompasses a lot of sauces, even those with some tomatoes in them, as long as chilies are the main ingredient. So you get enchiladas verdes, which are typically made with a tomatillo/green chile sauce, you get the classic enchiladas rojas, which are made with dried peppers, and a lot of other variations- they’re as loosey-goosey as the name would imply. If your stuff rolled up in a tortilla (corn) with sauce has a tomato sauce, they’re more properly called “entomatadas”, although I can’t say I’ve ever actually seen that on a menu or heard of it. And FWIW, chili gravy is sort of an old-school Tex-Mex variation on enchilada sauce that’s basically a hybrid of enchiladas rojas and something like a bechamel sauce. You basically make a light roux, add a shitload of chili/chile powder and some other spices like cumin and garlic, and then add chicken broth to make your sauce, and cook it to the right consistency. Probably technically a perfectly cromulent enchilada variation, even if a bit weird in terms of classic Mexican cooking. But it’s pretty much the only way to go if you’re aiming for old-school Tex-Mex. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/93 "2020-04-27T14:05:20Z")
When I was traveling in Europe, I kept causing confusion by ordering “coffee with cream”. It’s just the phrase I’m accustomed to use; I meant coffee with milk. I got all kinds of weird concoctions. One time I got a cup of black coffee with a pat of butter on the side. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/94 "2020-04-27T16:08:36Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > There are lots of hot sandwiches out there with steak and cheese, but if you’re selling a “Philly Cheesesteak”, it typically constrains some of the parameters. I think that fight is lost. Philly x means hot x with grilled bell peppers, onion and maybe mushrooms with melted cheese, probably on a long loaf of some kind like French or a sub roll. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Chicagoans can readily see how wrong that was: four of the ingredients were wrong. Meh, I particularly think the neon green relish is silly. I was on a major hot dog kick a few months ago and made a lot of forbidden substitutions. Dijon mustard, dill relish, purple onion, giardiniera. Your grocery’s recipe is also missing celery salt which I seldom skip. > [@terentii](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever had an Oscar Meyer Chicago dog. I believe it’s Vienna brand that’s used. And the bun should have poppy seeds. Vienna is for sure the 800 pound gorilla but Chicago’s Best is there, too. I personally alternate between Vienna and Nathans. And I never buy poppy seeded buns to eat at home since the seeds always scatter one way or another. > [@MikeG](#): > > Here in IL there is a small chain of burger places called Meatheads. They advertise a wedge salad but when you get it, it’s a chopped salad. Now that’s just plain wrong. A wedge salad is a wedge salad. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/95 "2020-04-27T16:37:50Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Baking soda in general is the new darling of modern sciencey cooks. Everybody from Alton Brown, to Kenji to America’s Test Kitchen are putting Baking soda in all kinds of meat marinades and things , because the ph change helps browning and flavor development, allowing keeping the heat lower, or shortening the cooking time to reduce over cooking. I recently tried [Kenji Lopez-Alt’s roasted potato recipe](https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/12/the-best-roast-potatoes-ever-recipe.html) to great effect. > [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > When I was traveling in Europe, I kept causing confusion by ordering “coffee with cream”. It’s just the phrase I’m accustomed to use; I meant coffee with milk. I got all kinds of weird concoctions. One time I got a cup of black coffee with a pat of butter on the side. Now with Bulletproof and competitors, buttered coffee is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/96 "2020-04-27T16:56:07Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Sounds like salad cream. Whatever it was, it had “mayonnaise” on the label. > [@DCnDC](#): > > There’s also the specific matter of “lo mein” vs “chow mein.” Most Americans have no idea there’s a difference; Panda Express and cheap takeout have completely muddied the issue. What you received in DC was cheap takeout bullshit. “Chow mein” should be the soft long noodles but pan-fried until crispy, almost like deep-fried. Then the meat, veggies and sauce are put on top. Done correctly, it’s amazing. They give you that fried noodles from a can because it’s much easier and faster than properly pan frying soft noodles. The stir-fried soft noodle dish you describe is what I would call “lo mein.” In NYC in my experience in the 1950s in Chinese restaurants “chow mein” consisted of a mix of meat, vegetables, and sauce, served with white rice and crispy fried noodles. I never heard of lo mein until decades later. My Irish-American mother used to make chow mein at home. It was basically chicken or other meat, sauted with celery, onions, and canned bean sprouts, water chestnuts, and bamboo sprouts, served with white rice and crispy chow mein noodles from a can. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/97 "2020-04-27T17:27:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > …Yes, I think it’s useful to make a distinction between “pepper” (piper) and “chili” (capsicum). Indeed! Pepper is a noble spice, and capsicum is poison. Yeah, I know I’m in a minority, but I won’t eat anything with capsicum. Once, I ate nothing but white rice as my friends enjoyed a Thai banquet because everything but the white rice was inedible. > [@DCnDC](#): > > …There’s also the specific matter of “lo mein” vs “chow mein.” Most Americans have no idea there’s a difference; Panda Express and cheap takeout have completely muddied the issue. What you received in DC was cheap takeout bullshit. “Chow mein” should be the soft long noodles but pan-fried until crispy, almost like deep-fried. Then the meat, veggies and sauce are put on top. Done correctly, it’s amazing. They give you that fried noodles from a can because it’s much easier and faster than properly pan frying soft noodles. The stir-fried soft noodle dish you describe is what I would call “lo mein.” Speaking as a caucasian who grew up near Boston, and ate Chinese a lot (and my father cooked Chinese a lot) “ **lo mein** ” is a stir fried dish with soft noodles. “ **pan fried noodles with xxxx** ” is the fried noodle dish you are describing. It’s one of my favorites, and also something that my father used to make. In fact, he ruined my mother’s good omelet pan making it once. The noodles are at the bottom of the dish, and fried into almost a nest, and they are crunchy and every-so-slightly caramelized, with delicious sauce dripping down through and around them. “ **chow mein** ” is fake Chinese food that I’ve never seen at an actual Chinese restaurant. Typically chunks of chicken with celery and carrots and other veggies in a bland cornstarch sauce. Not really that different from the filling of a bad chicken pot pie, only maybe there’s a hint of soy sauce. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/98 "2020-04-27T17:32:42Z")
If it doesn’t have beans in it then it isn’t Chili, it’s some kind of Manwich knockoff. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/99 "2020-04-27T17:52:29Z")
I agree with you, **Sitnam** , but a lot of folks take offense at that, and back up their claims to chili never containing beans with links to the earliest known recipes… which include beans. Apparently, to some Texan “purists”, proper chili is just wet steak. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558/100 "2020-04-27T18:24:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t know much about chemistry, bicarbonate seems like it should be the culprit, its not an acid (i think), but that would be apparent in use and it’s not. It also should neutralize the acids in baking powder. So I’m lost on this. They both have bicarb. Baking soda _is_ sodium bicarb, a base. Baking powder is bicarb with an added acid. The one in my pantry has sodium aluminum phosphate and monocalcium phosphate. A solution of baking soda will have a higher pH than one of baking powder. I would expect the more basic solution to more readily saponify the fats in steak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-not-what-that-recipe-means/852558.md?page=6)