# "That's so gay" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358 "2009-08-31T14:57:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/21 "2009-09-01T03:41:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That only works in text, and changing the spelling doesn’t change the meaning of the word. Well, you could start over-aspirating the h, like some people do to distinguish _where_ and _wear_. But, even without this, it’s pretty obvious in context, just like other homophones. I personally think it’s a bunch of people getting too upset about something they can’t fix. There are nearly as many people with OCD as male homosexuals, but I don’t get up in arms about it being used to describe anal retentive people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/22 "2009-09-01T03:50:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But, even without this, it’s pretty obvious in context, just like other homophones. The point of the campaign is that they’re not homophones, they’re the same word. While I think the campaign is futile, I agree with them on that point. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/23 "2009-09-01T05:10:25Z")
I think they have it wrong, because they are using the wrong definition and synonymns for gay, and causing more harm than good by defining it in their constructed, hateful, value-added example… Gay is much more subtle and contextual than “dumb” or “stupid” and doesn’t mean the same thing at all. Gay doesn’t mean “stupid”, it means “strange and off-color, or queer”, something that is “gay” is different than stupid or dumb, it is a gradation of speech that doesn’t imply hate. Their definition misses the mark, and they are creating a connotation that doesn’t exist. It’s PC at its worst, entirely made up… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/24 "2009-09-01T05:20:44Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Gay doesn’t mean “stupid”, it means “strange and off-color, or queer” I don’t think that definition helped your case very much. > [@](#): > > something that is “gay” is different than stupid or dumb, it is a gradation of speech that doesn’t imply hate. You’re right that “strange” is also part of the definition, but “dumb” is also included. It’s always spoken in a dismissive manner. And I don’t think the campaigners are saying “that’s so gay” means “I hate that.” They are saying it is hateful to use “gay” as a term for something you think is stupid and weird. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/25 "2009-09-01T05:33:17Z")
Why, what’s offensive about something that is queer? Queer: 1. strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/26 "2009-09-01T05:35:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re right that “strange” is also part of the definition, but “dumb” is also included. Cite? From a credible dictionary, if possible? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/27 "2009-09-01T05:47:26Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Why, what’s offensive about something that is queer? Queer is also used to describe alternative sexualities, and it’s often pejorative. So I thought it was funny that your attempt at a definition of “that’s so gay” included another derogatory word that also means gay. > [@devilsknew](#): > > Cite? From a credible dictionary, if possible? Webster’s is not going to include a slang term of recent coinage used by high schoolers. We are attempting to pin down the connotations of the word here. [But let’s look at Urban Dictionary.](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gay) I’m leaving out the “happy” and “homosexual” definitions for obvious reasons. > [@](#): > > 1. often used to describe something stupid or unfortunate. originating from homophobia. quite preferable among many teenage males in order to buff up their “masculinity” > [@](#): > > 1. A generic insult. > [@](#): > > 3.A generic insult. It can mean bad, stupid, whatever you want it to mean. > [@](#): > > 1. A word immature assholes use to describe anything that sucks, without regard to its actual sexuality. > [@](#): > > 3)Used by hetreosexuals towards one another as an insult > [@](#): > > 1. A derogatory synonym for “stupid” or “annoying” (use in this way is considered extremely offensive) > [@](#): > > 1. Commonly used slang meaning stupid or lame > [@](#): > > /Slang/ Used to discriminate; describe distasteful objects or people. > [@](#): > > Society basically uses the term gay for replacement of the following words: stupid, dumb, idiotic, lame, imbecile, foolish, dimwitted, moronic, slow, brainless, non-acceptable, and silly. We could go on and on through hundreds more entries but I think it’s clear many other people understand that “stupid” is one of the connotations of “that’s so gay.” ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/28 "2009-09-01T06:16:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Queer is also used to describe alternative sexualities, and it’s often pejorative. So I thought it was funny that your attempt at a definition of “that’s so gay” included another derogatory word that also means gay. Queer, as a description for an inanimate object or a thing is not perjorative, Gay in any context is not perjorative. You guys already won this one… why drag the word through shit of wholecloth? [Quote=Marley23] Webster’s is not going to include a slang term of recent coinage used by high schoolers. We are attempting to pin down the connotations of the word here. [But let’s look at Urban Dictionary.](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gay) I’m leaving out the “happy” and “homosexual” definitions for obvious reasons. [/Quote] Yea, that’s what I thought, you couldn’t find anything more credible than an open source fucking dictionary like, of all things, UrbanDictionary. I’ve seen it already, and all of those definitions are political hitjobs done by the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network through the Ad Council, ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/29 "2009-09-01T06:26:00Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Queer, as a description for an inanimate object or a thing is not perjorative, Gay in any context is not perjorative. Queer can be neutral and even gays often use it in a neutral or positive way. I was pointing that when you said “gay” isn’t pejorative, you defined it using another word that’s often pejorative - and like I said, this didn’t help your case. > [@](#): > > You guys already won this one… why drag the word through shit of wholecloth? Who is “you guys,” and what the hell does the last half of this sentence mean? > [@](#): > > Yea, that’s what I thought, you couldn’t find anything more credible than an open source fucking dictionary like, of all things, UrbanDictionary. What source would you recommend? I tried [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) and the first ten online dictionaries that came up in a Google search for “dictionary,” and none of them addressed this definition at all. They featured the “happy” and “homosexual” definitions only. As I said above, dictionaries usually don’t include this kind of recent slang. Maybe the OED would deal with this meaning, but I don’t own a copy of the OED. Absent that I think an open source dictionary is the best way to go. Some people have axes to grind, it at least gives you a sense of what people think the word means. It’s a better cite than your say-so. > [@](#): > > all of those definitions are political hitjobs done by the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network through the Ad Council I’d ask you to cite this, but owing to the fact that you made it up, I realize you can’t. So I’ll be polite and not ask. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/30 "2009-09-01T06:27:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Webster’s is not going to include a slang term of recent coinage used by high schoolers. We are attempting to pin down the connotations of the word here. This is funny… recent coinage? I first heard it used in this context some 30 years ago… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/31 "2009-09-01T06:33:32Z")
[I think this is from the OED.](http://www.bl.uk/learning/resources/oed/50093144%282%29.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*\* slang (chiefly U.S.). Foolish, stupid, socially inappropriate or disapproved of; ‘lame’.\*\* > > 1978 G. KIMBERLY Skateboard 41 ‘It looks terrific on you.’ ‘It looks gay.’ 1987 Creem Close-up Presents No. 1. 6 Your so-stupid-they’re-funny captions are gay. Get into some [real] humor. 1999 T. PARKER & M. STONE Cartman’s Mom is Dirty Slut in South Park Scripts: Bk. 1 150 (stage direct.) As the camera zooms in on their faces, that gay ‘Near/Far’ song from ‘Titanic’ plays. 2001 Washington Post 8 May C 9 Today, they [sc. teenagers] often use gay as an adjective meaning ‘stupid’… A gay movie is a stupid movie or one that makes no sense or one with a lame plot or all of those things. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/32 "2009-09-01T06:34:13Z")
Cassell’s Dictionary of Slang, Jonathon Green, 2005. “Gay. a general pej. epithet, stupid, ugly, eccentric.” [Direct link to page.](http://books.google.com/books?id=5GpLcC4a5fAC&lpg=PP1&dq=slang%20dictionary&pg=PA571#v=onepage&q=gay&f=false) ETA: That link didn’t work exactly right. Stupid Google Books. It’s on page 571. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/33 "2009-09-01T06:34:33Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Gay is much more subtle and contextual than “dumb” or “stupid” and doesn’t mean the same thing at all. Gay doesn’t mean “stupid”, it means “strange and off-color, or queer”, something that is “gay” is different than stupid or dumb, it is a gradation of speech that doesn’t imply hate. When someone says says, “That’s so gay” in that context, it’s not complementary, and it’s not even neutral. It’s used derogatorily. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/34 "2009-09-01T06:40:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When someone says says, “That’s so gay” in that context, it’s not complementary, and it’s not even neutral. It’s used derogatorily. I beg to differ, I’m a queer guy that sometimes does some gay shit, but I am neither queer nor gay, nor am I even homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/35 "2009-09-01T06:42:35Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I beg to differ, I’m a queer guy that sometimes does some gay shit, but I am neither queer nor gay, nor am I even homosexual. So wait, what’s your position here? That gay doesn’t mean homosexual, or that it’s never used in a negative way? You’re not really making sense. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/36 "2009-09-01T06:46:13Z")
**devilsknew** are you honestly claiming that you’ve never heard those terms pejoratively, and directed at people who are homosexual in that manner? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/37 "2009-09-01T06:52:11Z")
Nope, never heard the terms used perjoratively… only ironically and as neutral descriptors. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/38 "2009-09-01T06:54:35Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Nope, never heard the terms used perjoratively… only ironically and as neutral descriptors. I’m inclined to think you misunderstood. But in any case you’ve now seen cites from several dictionaries and an up-to-date Internet citation as well. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/39 "2009-09-02T13:46:40Z")
> [@ministryman](#): > > From [http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/:](http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/:) > > There are over 154,000 websites that use the phrase “That’s so gay” as of 8/30/2009. > > This site is attempting to remove the pejorative connotations in using “TSG”. > > But it also seems to want to remove the stigma surrounding the words “dick”, “balls” and “queer” (educating people to their actual definitions, not the slang usage) > > What do you think? You can have my “dick” when you pry it from my cold dead hands. Oh that doesn’t sound right. ---
**Author:** ![ministryman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@ministryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ministryman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/40 "2009-09-02T15:06:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So wait, what’s your position here? That gay doesn’t mean homosexual, or that it’s never used in a negative way? You’re not really making sense. He was being funny. He was saying (to use a combination of slang and literal use): He is a strange guy (queer) that does some pretty stupid things (gay shit), but he is not a homosexual. Understand now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=3)