# "That's so gay" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358 "2009-08-31T14:57:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/81 "2009-09-11T06:24:43Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > When I have used “Jew Down”, which is a colloquialism left over from my cultural East Side Toledoan Dialect, my mind and cognitive processes only turn to me or another getting a good deal. It is not a negative thing. > > I’m not ashamed to admit I’ve used the term, because it was a tribute. Do people really think this way? That using Jew as a verb is either a tribute or just a joke? Do any of you know any Jewish people ever? I can’t imagine using it in any social context where it would be socially acceptable. I’d be truly embarrassed if anyone I knew ever said that. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/82 "2009-09-11T06:30:20Z")
The first few times I heard “Jew down,” I thought it was “joo down,” with joo being some random nonsense word. I only found out what it meant when my dad’s friend - who also didn’t know what it meant, he was the nicest guy in the word - used it in front of his new girlfriend and she smacked him. Excuse my ignorance but I grew up in an area with a Jewish population of, AFAIK, zero. I don’t think I knew what a Jew was until I studied the Old Testament in the 10th grade, and then I was very confused because I thought there were 12 tribes and they sacrificed animals and . . . you get the picture. For the record I’ve since found myself particularly found of Jewish people, and my wife often accuses me of wanting to be Jewish (where’s that Jewish smiley when you finally need him?) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/83 "2009-09-11T06:36:04Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > No, not singularly. It absolutely does not mean stupid, one for one, in contextual parlance. You’re moving the goalposts here. > [@](#): > > The more you keep reinforcing that definition the more harm you do. I’m not sure what you think I, personally, am doing, other than showing you what the agreed-upon definition of “gay” is. In any case I showed you last week that the OED and other sources agree that’s what it means. > [@devilsknew](#): > > When I have used “Jew Down”, which is a colloquialism left over from my cultural East Side Toledoan Dialect, my mind and cognitive processes only turn to me or another getting a good deal. It is not a negative thing. > > I’m not ashamed to admit I’ve used the term, because it was a tribute. In other words, you don’t know what this means either. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/84 "2009-09-11T06:36:11Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Do people really think this way? That using Jew as a verb is either a tribute or just a joke? Do any of you know any Jewish people ever? I can’t imagine using it in any social context where it would be socially acceptable. I’d be truly embarrassed if anyone I knew ever said that. I know the sheeny man… it’s all right. I honestly never meant offense, I was just talking to my “group” in their lingua franca. It actually made me interested in these Jewish “businesspeople” as a group because I never knew any Jews, or at least to the best of my knowledge… turns out we never hated them locally, except the misconceptions that we had brought over years ago from the old country and WWII, but that was all temepered by the American Experience, turns out we might even be Jewish by descent. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/85 "2009-09-11T07:05:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re moving the goalposts here. There are no goalposts, because I don’t think of this as something to be won. The term simply does not have the connotations you think it has, the definition “stupid” is regional at best, and more than enriched by the popular culture and TV. Everydody kows a Gay person, but few think they are stupid, I mean how stupid do you have to be? Gay is like a peacock, not a dodo. [QUOTE=Marley23] I’m not sure what you think I, personally, am doing, other than showing you what the agreed-upon definition of “gay” is. In any case I showed you last week that the OED and other sources agree that’s what it means. [/Quote] You’re surreptitiously embattling a word war with the literary justification of WMD and “Mushroom Clouds”. [QUOTE=Marley23] In other words, you don’t know what this means either. [/QUOTE] I know it means that I now feel properly berated and embarassed for sharing that bit of my humanity with the public. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/86 "2009-09-11T14:44:12Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > The term simply does not have the connotations you think it has And that the OED thinks it has, and the slang dictionary **MsWhatsit** linked to thinks it has, and so on. > [@](#): > > the definition “stupid” is regional at best I don’t suppose you could cite this? Which regions use it this way? > [@](#): > > and more than enriched by the popular culture and TV. Where do definitions of word come from, in your opinion? If “popular culture” uses a word a certain way, that’s pretty much what a word means. I haven’t heard “gay” used this way very often in entertainment. A couple of movies, maybe. > [@](#): > > Everydody kows a Gay person, but few think they are stupid That’s not what this use of “gay” means, though. It’s not intended to call gay people stupid. The point of this misguided campaign is that this usage implies gay people are stupid. And while I think there’s not much point in the campaign, I think they’re right about that part. > [@](#): > > You’re surreptitiously embattling a word war with the literary justification of WMD and “Mushroom Clouds”. Or explaining what a word means using a dictionary, while you continue to insist words mean whatever you say they mean. > [@](#): > > I know it means that I now feel properly berated and embarassed for sharing that bit of my humanity with the public. You might believe your usage of “Jew down” is cute and a tribute to Jews, but the usage is rooted in the belief that Jews are cheap. So it’s not really surprising that not everybody thinks it’s a nice tribute. Sorry if you found that embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/87 "2009-09-11T15:48:30Z")
Color me surprised that there are still people in this day and age who think it’s acceptable not only to use phrases like “Jewed him down” but also to claim that it’s not an expression of bigotry. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/88 "2009-09-11T19:17:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Color me surprised that there are still people in this day and age who think it’s acceptable not only to use phrases like “Jewed him down” but also to claim that it’s not an expression of bigotry. Ugh. It wasn’t an expression of bigotry, it was an artifact of dialect that I honestly used with no discerning cognitive process or background of hate or offense. I didn’t even know what a Jew was, but it made me curious and I learned about the jews because of it, and in the process found out that I might be Jewish. Ironically, It might have survived in my personal dialect because of that little family secret. Do I use it now? No. Have I used it in the past? Yes. Do I still hear it used by other people? Occasionally, yes. And I don’t think they are bigots, they are just using a term that is precise and colloquial. Honestly, I think our language would be poorer without the term, and I know I would be culturally poorer without ever having used or heard the term. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/89 "2009-09-11T20:14:13Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Do I still hear it used by other people? Occasionally, yes. And I don’t think they are bigots, they are just using a term that is precise and colloquial. And that’s where this is similar to the “that’s so gay” debate. Even if you’re not a bigot yourself, you can hurt someone else by using this kind of language, because it can do things like reinforce negative views of others or perpetuate stereotypes. > [@](#): > > Honestly, I think our language would be poorer without the term I strongly disagree with that one. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/90 "2009-09-11T20:45:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And that’s where this is similar to the “that’s so gay” debate. Even if you’re not a bigot yourself, you can hurt someone else by using this kind of language, because it can do things like reinforce negative views of others or perpetuate stereotypes. “That’s gay” is not at all like “Jew someone down”. They are not similar and it is not at all accurate to compare the two and it is frankly insulting. “That’s gay” doesn’t reinforce a negative view nor perpetuate a stereotype, because it does not singularly mean stupid, and the dictionaries that you have cited show this in their definitions. Can’t you read a dictionary, or are you just cherrypicking? Gay does not mean stupid unequivocally, stupid is included in a list of qualifying synonymns that imply “unconventional”. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/91 "2009-09-11T21:07:13Z")
“That’s so gay,” in every context I’ve ever heard it, means lame, nerdy, wimpy, . . . the best single-word definition I could think of is probably “uncool.” I’ve never thought of it or heard it used to mean dumb or stupid, but it definitely is used exclusively negative. I’ve never heard someone say “that’s so gay” as a way to praise something. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/92 "2009-09-11T21:22:33Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > “That’s gay” is not at all like “Jew someone down”. They are not similar and it is not at all accurate to compare the two and it is frankly insulting. “That’s gay” doesn’t reinforce a negative view nor perpetuate a stereotype, because it does not singularly mean stupid, and the dictionaries that you have cited show this in their definitions. Can’t you read a dictionary, or are you just cherrypicking? Gay does not mean stupid unequivocally, stupid is included in a list of qualifying synonymns that imply “unconventional”. Of course there’s an equivalence. When you tell somebody they’re acting gay, you’re telling them that they’re acting in a way that deserves ridicule. The word you’re using is a word that means homosexual. Homosexuals are a group that is historically abused and ridiculed. You don’t really believe, do you, that calling somebody “gay” for acting a certain way has its roots in a different tradition than the one of associating certain negative qualities with homosexuals? If you do, could you please tell us how you believe that distinction arose? It’s exactly the same process as the one that led to “to Jew down” becoming the kind of phrase that one might use without any actual regard for religious observance. Exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/93 "2009-09-11T21:32:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You might believe your usage of “Jew down” is cute and a tribute to Jews, but the usage is rooted in the belief that Jews are cheap. So it’s not really surprising that not everybody thinks it’s a nice tribute. Sorry if you found that embarrassing. Well, to be honest when I used the term “to jew someone down” or heard it used it never occurred to me that Jews were cheap. It was used to mean that I or someone else got the best damn bargain possible. It meant that we were skillful in the art of bartering. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/94 "2009-09-11T21:34:22Z")
So it’s ok for me to describe my neighbors old car, which is held together with baling wire and duct tape, as nigger-rigged? And when he puts big chrome rims on it (despite the rust holes), it’s ok for me to say he must be nigger-rich this week? I mean neither of those phrases have anything to do with black people. The words just happen to sound similar. The phrases aren’t even insulting, really, I admire people who can keep old machines working, and hey, having money temporarily is better than never having it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/95 "2009-09-11T21:41:51Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > They are not similar and it is not at all accurate to compare the two and it is frankly insulting. That’s rich. Who am I insulting? > [@](#): > > “That’s gay” doesn’t reinforce a negative view nor perpetuate a stereotype, because it does not singularly mean stupid, and the dictionaries that you have cited show this in their definitions. I said myself it means other things than “stupid.” But they’re all negative: “foolish,” “lame,” “social disapproved-of.” In the slang dictionary, also “ugly” and “eccentric.” > [@](#): > > Can’t you read a dictionary, or are you just cherrypicking? You are criticizing me for not recycling a list of words in every post? I never “that’s so gay” meant “stupid” alone. And I posted the link to the dictionary, so I think it’s safe to assume I read it. > [@](#): > > Gay does not mean stupid unequivocally, stupid is included in a list of qualifying synonymns that imply “unconventional”. Nonsense. One or two of the synonyms imply “unconventional,” most just say that it’s something the speaker doesn’t like and finds stupid. The negativity is what people are objecting to. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/96 "2009-09-11T21:44:57Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > “That’s so gay,” in every context I’ve ever heard it, means lame, nerdy, wimpy, . . . the best single-word definition I could think of is probably “uncool.” > > I’ve never thought of it or heard it used to mean dumb or stupid, but it definitely is used exclusively negative. I’ve never heard someone say “that’s so gay” as a way to praise something. Hey, look! It’s a normal guy who grew up in America! First one in the thread! (seriously, this is spot-on) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/97 "2009-09-11T22:15:55Z")
This seems to have turned into a debate, so I’m going to move it over to GD. twickster, MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/98 "2009-09-12T01:52:46Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > So it’s ok for me to describe my neighbors old car, which is held together with baling wire and duct tape, as nigger-rigged? And when he puts big chrome rims on it (despite the rust holes), it’s ok for me to say he must be nigger-rich this week? I mean neither of those phrases have anything to do with black people. The words just happen to sound similar. The phrases aren’t even insulting, really, I admire people who can keep old machines working, and hey, having money temporarily is better than never having it at all. That’s not really an appropriate example, given that people now get offended at entirely unrelated terms like “Niggardly”. But I’d be willing to bet there are heaps of people who _would_ describe a “bush-mechanic” repair job as being “nigger-rigged” without intending any malice towards coloured people, simply because when they were growing up a bodgy repair job was called “nigger-rigging” and the name has remained, divorced from it derogatory origins, because they’ve never associated with “Nigger-rigging” with Mr. Johnson from down the road who works for the Mayor’s office and happens to be Black. Look at it this way: the term “Bitch-slap” has nothing to do with the mistreatment of female canines and “Pussy Whipped” does not involve inflicting corporal punishment with a moggy. The English language is a complex and constantly evolving thing, and certain minority groups do not “own” parts of the language. They can ask people not to use certain words _in their presence_, but they cannot demand people refrain from _ever_ using certain words. And where are all these gay teenagers coming from anyway? When I was in high school there were, I think, four gay kids out of 1200 students. Had they tried to tell people not to denigrate things as being “Gay”, they would have been roundly ignored and told to get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/99 "2009-09-12T02:22:26Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And where are all these gay teenagers coming from anyway? What a weird question. They come from the same place they always came from, but at least in the U.S., it appears to be more acceptable than ever for kids to be gay, so I would expect that more kids are open with their sexuality these days, at least among small groups of friends if not with their entire schools. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/100 "2009-09-12T05:21:52Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > That’s not really an appropriate example, given that people now get offended at entirely unrelated terms like “Niggardly”. But I’d be willing to bet there are heaps of people who _would_ describe a “bush-mechanic” repair job as being “nigger-rigged” without intending any malice towards coloured people, simply because when they were growing up a bodgy repair job was called “nigger-rigging” and the name has remained, divorced from it derogatory origins, because they’ve never associated with “Nigger-rigging” with Mr. Johnson from down the road who works for the Mayor’s office and happens to be Black. Even if people use the term “nigger-rigging” without any malice toward black people, they are still re-enforcing a negative stereotype. You don’t have to intentionally use the word in a derogatory manner for it to have a negative effect. > [@](#): > > The English language is a complex and constantly evolving thing, and certain minority groups do not “own” parts of the language. They can ask people not to use certain words _in their presence_, but they cannot demand people refrain from _ever_ using certain words. But can they ask society to stop re-enforcing a negative stereotype? Do you think that using the word “gay” in a negative manner does not re-enforce stereotypes, or do you think that homosexuals just shouldn’t complain about it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=6)