# "That's so gay" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358 "2009-08-31T14:57:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/101 "2009-09-12T05:24:48Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Do you think that using the word “gay” in a negative manner does not re-enforce stereotypes, or do you think that homosexuals just shouldn’t complain about it? Can it be both? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/102 "2009-09-12T06:46:35Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Can it be both? You can say whatever you want. It’s pretty much a free world these days. But just know that an increasing number of people are going to think a little less of you for it. If that’s no sweat off your balls then there’s really nothing else to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/103 "2009-09-12T07:17:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And that’s where this is similar to the “that’s so gay” debate. Even if you’re not a bigot yourself, you can hurt someone else by using this kind of language, because it can do things like reinforce negative views of others or perpetuate stereotypes. Yeah, but can’t you make the **exact same case** for the word “black”? Think about it, fantasy, even childrens books are filled with references to people with a “black heart,” villains and so-called bad boys dressed in black, blackness consuming the land being a general descriptor for pestilence, war and destruction and so on. And yet… I’ve heard one, maybe two people ever argue to quit using black in that way full-stop. People compartmentalized, just because all these “black” things are bad doesn’t mean that people who have skin described as black are bad because [Barney said so | the black Power Ranger wasn’t evil | that girl that sits next to me is nice and her mom makes us cookies and both of them are black | Other] . As long as there are positive portrayals of homosexuals (and there are) it doesn’t really seem to be an issue unless you make it one. I know gay people who use the gay descriptor,\* hell, I have friends who would never, ever intentionally hurt their gay friend’s feelings in a million years that throw it out casually. I try to refrain from it myself, but I personally really don’t see much against it. - Oh, and FWIW, I also think “stupid” is a poor description. I’d ere on the side of “uncool” or “weak.” The best descriptor is actually closer to the word “cheap” as used to describe a play in a game but with broader applications, if anyone is familiar with the RPG terms “munchkin” and “cheese,” the term gay would generally refer to the actual effects of such. A munchkin uses cheese to pull stuff that’s kind of gay. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/104 "2009-09-12T19:09:34Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And where are all these gay teenagers coming from anyway? When I was in high school there were, I think, four gay kids out of 1200 students. Had they tried to tell people not to denigrate things as being “Gay”, they would have been roundly ignored and told to get over it. Gee, I wonder why more people didn’t feel comfortable telling you they were gay. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/105 "2009-09-13T06:37:19Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Gee, I wonder why more people didn’t feel comfortable telling you they were gay. :rolleyes: Yeah, because anyone who disagrees with you about the word “gay” is obviously a homophobe. :rolleyes:[sup]2[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/106 "2009-09-13T06:47:27Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yeah, because anyone who disagrees with you about the word “gay” is obviously a homophobe. :rolleyes:[sup]2[/sup] Ignoring that this is a non sequitur, let’s break it down: Before meaning Homosexual, Gay meant Happy (it also apparently meant Licentious, which is interesting, but not very relevant because I’ve never heard it used that way and don’t think many people are aware of that meaning.) So it’s Happy (in the old days) or Homosexual (today.) Is there a possible instance when “that’s so gay” means “that’s so _happy_”? I’ve never heard that. It’s not been brought up here. I don’t think many people would know what you meant. So “that’s so gay” means “that’s so homosexual.” Is “that’s so gay” _ever_ a way to praise something? Not in my experience. It is used, 100% of the time, as an insult. So if you go around calling things gay as a way to put them down, how are you not belittling gay people? If you go around belittling gay people, how is that not a rude thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/107 "2009-09-13T06:53:59Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yeah, because anyone who disagrees with you about the word “gay” is obviously a homophobe. :rolleyes:[sup]2[/sup] You yourself said that the word gay is used to denigrate. Why should they have to get over it? Why should any minority group accept a slur against them as normal? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/108 "2009-09-13T07:40:36Z")
I? When? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/109 "2009-09-13T07:44:29Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I? When? Sorry, I thought that was **Martini Enfield** who was responding. To respond to what you said, I don’t think that anyone who disagrees on that point is automatically a homophobe, but I do think that people who think that using terms like, “Jew him down” or “that’s so gay” aren’t bigoted are fooling themselves. It’s actually a little shocking to me to hear people try to defend stuff like “Jew” as a verb–it’s so clearly anti-semetic to me that I just don’t get why you’d even want to use it. And comparisons to stuff like people getting upset over things like niggardly are just stupid. These are words designed to take a really bad stereotype of someone–they’re not just words that happen to sound like a slur. I just don’t get why you’d want to use them knowing that these were originally designed to make other people feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/110 "2009-09-13T08:05:23Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Sorry, I thought that was **Martini Enfield** who was responding. > > To respond to what you said, I don’t think that anyone who disagrees on that point is automatically a homophobe, but I do think that people who think that using terms like, “Jew him down” or “that’s so gay” aren’t bigoted are fooling themselves. It’s actually a little shocking to me to hear people try to defend stuff like “Jew” as a verb–it’s so clearly anti-semetic to me that I just don’t get why you’d even want to use it. And comparisons to stuff like people getting upset over things like niggardly are just stupid. These are words designed to take a really bad stereotype of someone–they’re not just words that happen to sound like a slur. I just don’t get why you’d want to use them knowing that these were originally designed to make other people feel bad. That’s interesting, but what you actually said seemed from here on the sidelines to be implying that **Martini Enfield** ’s contrary viewpoint branded him as someone whose bigotry would make most gays reluctant to admit it in his presence, and that was the only point I was addressing. This for **Cisco** ’s benefit too. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/111 "2009-09-13T08:11:12Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > That’s interesting, but what you actually said seemed from here on the sidelines to be implying that **Martini Enfield** ’s contrary viewpoint branded him as someone whose bigotry would make most gays reluctant to admit it in his presence, and that was the only point I was addressing. This for **Cisco** ’s benefit too. Well, if I were gay and I heard someone saying that people should just suck it up and move on when people use a slur about me, then yeah, it would cross my mind that they were a bigot. At best they’re just incredibly insensitive. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/112 "2009-09-13T08:47:30Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, if I were gay and I heard someone saying that people should just suck it up and move on when people use a slur about me, then yeah, it would cross my mind that they were a bigot. At best they’re just incredibly insensitive. Look, describing something as “Gay” is _not_ automatically a slur against gay people. Describing some_one_ as a “Useless gay waste of space” is a slur and bigoted. Describing some_thing_ as “Incredibly Gay” is an entirely different kettle of fish and is not something that should be considered “bigoted” or a slur. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/113 "2009-09-13T15:40:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Is there a possible instance when “that’s so gay” means “that’s so _happy_”? I’ve never heard that. It’s not been brought up here. I don’t think many people would know what you meant. Try watching some movies from the '30s; it’s used that way quite a bit. Except that it never really meant “happy,” more like carefree and non-serious. “Mary’s so gay” meant that Mary likes to party and have a good time and laugh a lot, and doesn’t take life very seriously. Or you could call a party gay . . . or a hat. Not the same as being happy. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/114 "2009-09-13T15:58:51Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Look, describing something as “Gay” is _not_ automatically a slur against gay people. > > Describing some_one_ as a “Useless gay waste of space” is a slur and bigoted. Describing some_thing_ as “Incredibly Gay” is an entirely different kettle of fish and is not something that should be considered “bigoted” or a slur. You don’t really believe, do you, that calling somebody “gay” for acting a certain way has its roots in a different tradition than the one of associating certain negative qualities with homosexuals? If you do, could you please tell us how you believe that distinction arose? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/115 "2009-09-13T15:59:14Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > The problem is that kids will associate homosexuals with lameness and stupidity when they hear the word “gay” used to describe lame and stupid things. Well, maybe male homosexuals should find a new word to describe themselves? Like male homosexuals. Or something totaly new. Thats one way to kill the unfortunate duel meaning problem. And then when someone actually uses the word gay to describe a PERSON you’ll know they dont mean well. The “gay” community has painted themselves in the same absurd corner by accepting the previously derogatory term “gay” and making it their own… that black people did with variations of the N word. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/116 "2009-09-13T16:00:07Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yeah, because anyone who disagrees with you about the word “gay” is obviously a homophobe. :rolleyes:[sup]2[/sup] Anyone who disagrees with her about the word gay on this particular point is contributing to homophobia, which is close enough in my book. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/117 "2009-09-13T16:10:26Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Is there a possible instance when “that’s so gay” means “that’s so _happy_”? I’ve never heard that. It’s not been brought up here. I don’t think many people would know what you meant. IIRC the intro to the Flintstones originally had a singing line along the lines of “We’ll have a GAY old time”. I am pretty sure that Barney and Fred lived in Bedrock, not Brokeback Mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/118 "2009-09-13T16:45:27Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The “gay” community has painted themselves in the same absurd corner by accepting the previously derogatory term “gay” and making it their own… that black people did with variations of the N word. Are you sure that’s how it happened? That the derogatory sense predates the descriptive one? That isn’t what [Cecil said](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/517/how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual): > [@](#): > > By 1935 the word “geycat,” meaning a homosexual boy, had found its way into print, giving a clue as to the direction things were starting to go. Sure enough, by 1955 “gay” had acquired its present meaning, as P. Wildeblood notes in Against Law: "Most of the officers had been “gay’ … an American euphemism for homosexual.” Actually, gays had probably been using the term among themselves long before. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/119 "2009-09-13T16:53:48Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The “gay” community has painted themselves in the same absurd corner by accepting the previously derogatory term “gay” and making it their own… that black people did with variations of the N word. “Gay” wasn’t a previously derogatory term. It meant happy or carefree, which isn’t particularly derogatory. And even though it would be anachronistic to use it that way now, and people would probably look at you weird, nobody would consider that usage a slur. But the use of the word we’re talking about, the whole “That’s so gay/you’re so gay” thing postdates the use of gay as a synonym for homosexual. If you were to go back in time to the 30s and use “You’re so gay” as an insult, people would have no idea what you meant. It postdates the whole gay=homosexual usage, and in fact, it derives from that usage. It comes from the stereotype of homosexuals as effeminate and foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/120 "2009-09-13T17:07:12Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Try watching some movies from the '30s; it’s used that way quite a bit. Except that it never really meant “happy,” more like carefree and non-serious. “Mary’s so gay” meant that Mary likes to party and have a good time and laugh a lot, and doesn’t take life very seriously. Or you could call a party gay . . . or a hat. Not the same as being happy. > [@billfish678](#): > > IIRC the intro to the Flintstones originally had a singing line along the lines of “We’ll have a GAY old time”. > > I am pretty sure that Barney and Fred lived in Bedrock, not Brokeback Mountain. Oh. Really? Gay used to mean happy? Wow. I didn’t know. I never knew. It must still mean that, right? You hear it used that way constantly in 2009, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=7)